Small Arms.-No AR-15 conversation allowed

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xXAgeOfPeopleXx

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So you think that Saddam's Army would have won if America was still using the Springfield?

No I guess not, but really it's stupid to say modern armour because they are so evolved from the equipment of world War two. It really is an exercise in futility as trying to diminish the role of the most important item of equipment is just perplexing. If you didn't have Infantry the Armour would be comepletely useless and as Vanguard said no single weapon wins a war but it would be nice because it's immersive and provides a dillema. Arming your men with MP44's or continuing M40 Production this was a real dilemma that the Germans had to overcome and is one of the reasons that the MP44 did not see wide scale adoption outside certain units. But the ability to give these weapons to units and actually have Infantry be important rather than an after thought.

Hollywood tries to teach us that artillery, armour and planes are the most important part of an offensive, but without infantry these elements would be useless. Tanks can not hold ground, planes can not confirm targets, artillery can't hit targets without spotters and machine gunners to pin the enemy in place. To demote Infantry equipment to "other" is to demote where most of the Army R&D goes.
 

Rudawitz

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@ Klausewitz: Isn't c representative of the speed of light? I think you're looking for another formula.

Edit: I should have read the second page of the thread before posting.
 

xXAgeOfPeopleXx

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Infantry Battalion tech

But to have a two track or three track system, you need to identify two or three clear choices around which to diverge. Can that be done for WWII? There's the German MG centric system, did any other countries practice it?

(Distributed vs centralised firepower, maybe... one side is semiautomatics and BARs and SMGs whereas other is MMGs/HMGs/bolt actions...more/less radios etc. That would put Soviets and Americans on one side and British and Germans on the other.)

The Russians opted for Squad Machine guns as did the commonwealth. The Bren is hardly an Automatic Rifle being to cumbersome to use as such. Really the US France and the late Australian/New Zealand Army the only country that adopted the automatic rifle mentality. Unless I'm mis-interpreting what you mean.

Justifying small arms tech. I can't really understand what you mean when you say it's too much as the system already exists for Armour. Basically you'd have 3 classes of weapons to research as opposed to 3 classes of tanks the only extra thing is that you could choose what battalion type uses what weapon. Beside immersion it'd remove much of the linearity form Hearts of Iron tech as it would not be a matter of this is flat out better. This has beena problem that has existed since Hearts of Iron 1 and since the most common unit is Infantry should they have the most effort put into them?

And also not only do infantry use small Arms but cavalry, marines, paratroopers, engineers and military police so in my opinion they're probably more important to simulate in depth than the tanks each tree can only be used by one unit.
 

Novacat

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Semi-auto rifles are expensive. Much more so, than bolt action. A SMG, like PPSH-41 was cheaper and easier to make than an SVT-40. Much less milling involved, more stamping. Mass warfare is not just about best weapons - its also about having enough of said weapons. Germany did not develop a cheap and reliable semi-auto rifle. Neither did SU. But USA did, and they used it.

Yes they did, just that they came too late for it to matter much in the war. The Germans developed the G-43 and STG-44, the Soviets developed the SKS and AK-47.

@Energy:
There is however a twist:
Energy carried is not = energy transmitted to target.
High caliber rifle bullets (8mm) had a tendency to go through their target and travel on, only making a little hole and nothing more.
Smaller bullets (5.56mm) lost their energy quicker and were less stable resulting in them starting to tumble when meeting solid objects (amongst others: people) which means that they transmit much more of their energy into the poor slob.
Same goes to a lesser extent for pistol (and therefore SMG calibers). They might not carry as much energy but are much more effective in transmitting a lot of that energy into their target.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

The 5.56's tumbling is known as keyholing, and is a sign of a weapon firing an ammunition type it was not designed for. It is actually very undesirable in weapons, since it substantially reduces penetration and accuracy.

You are also wrong about higher caliber weapons only making a 'small hole' and then moving on. The truth is that the larger the caliber, the more damage it does. Anything about 7mm will kill things dead very, very effectively. Scaling up caliber is a very effective way to increase damage. However, accuracy and range are not directly affected by caliber at all, but rather cartridge length and barrel length. Infact higher calibers tend to affect bullet length negatively since they usually imply heavier bullet which means much more propellant required to shoot that bullet at a certain muzzle velocity.

One of the early major developments of the assault rifle in Germany and the Soviet Union (but not NATO who went a different route) was shortening both of bullet and rifle. The 7.62x39 and 7.62x33 Kurz were shortened versions of the rounds used in the Mosin Nagant and Mauser. Infact, the pairing of a huge caliber with a short cartridge are the reason why the AK-47 was considered 'inaccurate' compared to NATO cartridges, which generally opted to scale things down to reduce weight (which is where the 5.56x45mm NATO came from) as opposed to shortening the cartridge. Though the 7.62x51mm was a slightly shortened version of the 30-06 that it replaced.
 
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G

Gethsemani

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Hollywood tries to teach us that artillery, armour and planes are the most important part of an offensive, but without infantry these elements would be useless. Tanks can not hold ground, planes can not confirm targets, artillery can't hit targets without spotters and machine gunners to pin the enemy in place. To demote Infantry equipment to "other" is to demote where most of the Army R&D goes.

Arguably though, the doctrinal use of the infantry's small arms is more important than the actual forms of the small arms, as long as they are adequate for their purpose, when you look at it from the macro perspective of a simulation like HoI4 will. Modelling different forms of small arms is more detail than a simulation that deals with divisions as the smallest combat component needs or can realistically benefit from. Unlike improvements in aircraft models, tank models or ship technology there's no drastic difference between an infantry platoon armed with bolt action rifles and light machine guns and an infantry platoon armed with semi-automatic rifles and automatic rifles, since their final effectiveness still hinges on many other factors like 3C, fire support etc. and even when they are at their most effective they will still only contribute to around 10% of total casualties in combat, falling far behind the casualties contributed by indirect fire support from mortars and artillery. Upgrading from the P-40 to the P-51 is a huge difference in terms of firepower, range and mission versatility, just as upgrading from the Panzer II to the Panzer IV was, but upgrading from K98ks to G43s doesn't radically improve a German infantry divisions capabilities since its' main killing power will still come from its' organic artillery battalions.

No one is saying that infantry isn't important. Rather that modelling different infantry small arms falls outside the scope of Hearts of Iron 4.
 

Novacat

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since their final effectiveness still hinges on many other factors like 3C, fire support etc. and even when they are at their most effective they will still only contribute to around 10% of total casualties in combat, falling far behind the casualties contributed by indirect fire support from mortars and artillery.

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

The statistics posted in this thread have been manipulated so badly that it is almost comical that people consider it a valid source at all. You have bombs, artillery, grenades, AND shells lumped into one catigory, of course its going to have disproportionate representation. Meanwhile bullets are practically by themselves since the amount of casualties caused by AT Mines tend to be very, very low (and almost completely nonexistant among infantry, only tank desant infantry will be threatened at all). Even worse is the fact that that the percentages do not even represent infantry casualties, but rather total casualties, including from long-range bombardment while no active combat is taking place.

Whoever published the statistics had an agenda to push.

Note that, alongside the omnibus 'Bombs, artillery, grenades, and shells' catigory not only covering casualties that took place outside of direct combat, but also covering the armaments of bombers, planes, ships, tanks/assault guns, mortar teams, and armored personnel/antitank grenades. That makes it effectively useless for the purpose of determining which weapons are/are not effective in terms of raw casualty counts.
 
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Kovax

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The point is that both weapons and doctrines had a different focus from country to country, and changing the weapons without altering the doctrines would have resulted in no significant gain.

The US put its emphasis on the individual rifleman, developed tactics which revolved around the use of rifle teams, and settled on a relatively weak automatic rifle for a support weapon. The Germans, on the other hand, put the emphasis on the machinegun and just utilized a newer version of an old rifle design, which was adequate in the role of providing suppression fire to allow the MG to be set up and sighted. The Soviets increasingly emphasized quantity over quality (although the quality of some specific pieces was actually pretty good), and massed firepower, with an overall shift toward high-rate-of-fire weapons to put the most firepower into the hands of poorly trained recruits for the least cost. It's not as if one country had a huge edge in small arms "quality" overall, just different priorities within that classification.

As pointed out in an earlier post, the impact of a bullet depends on its mass x velocity (unless you're firing nuclear weapons, in which case E=mc^2 does matter), with the energy transmission being related to the size of contact area only in the case of overpenetration (if the bullet stops, it's imparted 100% of its impact energy to the target). Most rifle rounds fire a fairly large bullet propelled by an even wider and rather long bottle-nosed cartridge, while pistol rounds use a shorter bullet which may be of anywhere from significantly smaller to somewhat larger diameter than a typical rifle round, but propelled by a cartridge of the same width as the bullet and not much length; generally ranging from slightly to significantly less bullet mass, with far less velocity.

A SMG uses pistol rounds. A MG uses rifle rounds. An assault rifle uses slightly smaller and shorter rifle rounds, with its bottle-nosed cartridges still considerably wider than the bullet. These provide most of the velocity of a rifle round, but are generally smaller overall, for the reduction in size and weight necessary to allow sufficient ammo to be carried, despite the much higher RoF. The higher initial velocity, coupled with a slightly higher mass versus cross-sectional area of a rifle round, give it better range than other types, because its already higher velocity drops off more slowly with atmospheric friction.

A round which fails to exit the target imparts all of its impact energy to the target, whether it tumbles, expands, or strikes something that stops it, while a bullet which overpenetrates retains some of its energy, which is then wasted until/unless it strikes something (or someone) else.

There's a lot more to "small arms" than simple rates of fire, ranges, and other numbers on a sheet of paper, many of which are hard to quantify: how hard is to reload while under fire, how much does it weigh and fatigue the user, how quickly can it be brought to bear and sighted on target with a "reasonable" amount of accuracy (rather than absolute accuracy under controlled conditions), etc. Just as critically, if the weapon is utilized in a manner that does not take advantages of its strengths, or compensates for its weaknesses, it's likely to be less effective in practice than a "clearly superior" weapon.

I don't think the game needs to model the tactical advantages and disadvantages of various small arms in a "strategic" game, but such differences in approach (such as Garand+AR versus Mauser+LMG) might better be represented by various small arms paths leading to different situational modifiers: "+1 in open terrain, -1 in woods", or vice versa. Additional tech advances (increased deployment of SMGs or early ARs, etc.) could confer situational bonuses applicable only to some situations, rather than straight "+1" modifiers across the board.
 
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xXAgeOfPeopleXx

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I don't think the game needs to model the tactical advantages and disadvantages of various small arms in a "strategic" game, but such differences in approach (such as Garand+AR versus Mauser+LMG) might better be represented by various small arms paths leading to different situational modifiers: "+1 in open terrain, -1 in woods", or vice versa. Additional tech advances (increased deployment of SMGs or early ARs, etc.) could confer situational bonuses applicable only to some situations, rather than straight "+1" modifiers across the board.

To be honest that is really what I wanted to see. In Urban operations those kitted with weapons suited to urban ops have the right stuff. Granted a bullet will still kill and doctrine is important, but without the M1 Garand America's doctrine wouldn't of worked so to employ the Doctrine you'd still need to have the Rifle developed. I dunno, I guess my logic is a strategic game should simulate everything equally but it seems the majority of people just don't like organising and planning as much as I do. I just hope that it can be modded in though.
 
G

Gethsemani

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There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

The statistics posted in this thread have been manipulated so badly that it is almost comical that people consider it a valid source at all. You have bombs, artillery, grenades, AND shells lumped into one catigory, of course its going to have disproportionate representation. Meanwhile bullets are practically by themselves since the amount of casualties caused by AT Mines tend to be very, very low (and almost completely nonexistant among infantry, only tank desant infantry will be threatened at all). Even worse is the fact that that the percentages do not even represent infantry casualties, but rather total casualties, including from long-range bombardment while no active combat is taking place.

Whoever published the statistics had an agenda to push.

Note that, alongside the omnibus 'Bombs, artillery, grenades, and shells' catigory not only covering casualties that took place outside of direct combat, but also covering the armaments of bombers, planes, ships, tanks/assault guns, mortar teams, and armored personnel/antitank grenades. That makes it effectively useless for the purpose of determining which weapons are/are not effective in terms of raw casualty counts.

Except the statistics in this thread correlate with statistics I've seen elsewhere, including the statistics we were taught during basic training in the army. Even if the numbers aren't "combat only" casualties, they are still valid for this discussion as Hearts of Iron abstracts on a division level and, as far as we know, doesn't take into account attrition just from being on the frontline. The combats we see in Hearts of Iron are abstracted on a strategic level, which means that the casualties in them include all the casualties suffered in the divisions involved in combat, including any casualties from indirect fire against rear echelon units. These are numbers that we can't dismiss when abstracting on such a high level, even though they might be irrelevant in a game that abstracts on a lower level (such as Company of Heroes, that's platoon/company sized).

It is all about scale and HoI operates on a large scale, hence the things that are important in the micro perspective might not be in the macro perspective. It is the difference between Jagged Alliance (heavy focus on individual soldiers and their equipment), Company of Heroes (focus on platoon/company composition and tactics) and Hearts of Iron (focus on grand strategy and army composition). Introducing details from the tactical perspective quickly clutters the strategical perspective and runs the risk of obfuscating the important strategic decisions.
 

Novacat

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Except the statistics in this thread correlate with statistics I've seen elsewhere, including the statistics we were taught during basic training in the army. Even if the numbers aren't "combat only" casualties, they are still valid for this discussion as Hearts of Iron abstracts on a division level and, as far as we know, doesn't take into account attrition just from being on the frontline.

I would like to see those statistics posted here. As I said, the previous statistics are almost completely useless due to how much they have been manipulated. I do not trust manipulated statistics.
 

jju_57

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I love how those trying to claim a bolt action with a good rifleman is almost the same as a M1. The 40-50 RPM is for the average GI. A good rifleman will get much more. The M1 caused the other nations to try and counter it. That is all the proof you need to realize that the M1 was superior in firepower to any bolt action rifle. It takes me about 4 seconds to fire off the 8 round clip. Now depending on where I have the next clips I can easily pop in a new one and start shooting 8 more rounds in about 2 seconds. And target shooting is not warfare. You never take your time to fully aim because if you did you wouldn't have a head anymore.

One last thing to nitpick and correct. E=mc² is incorrect. If this was correct then a photon would have zero energy. This is only a portion of the real equation. The correct equation is actually:

(E)² = (mc²)² + (pc)²

This first part deals with energy for objects at rest mass and the second part is for massless object that can never be at rest, like the photon.
 

rutger9

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@Energy:
Energy is E=mc², meaning mass (which is greater in rifle projectiles as well) contributs normally to energy output while speed (which is MUCH greater in rifle bullets) contributes square.
So a rifle projectile that has both higher mass and higher speed when leaving the barrel remains more stable and carries more energy.
There is however a twist:
Energy carried is not = energy transmitted to target.
High caliber rifle bullets (8mm) had a tendency to go through their target and travel on, only making a little hole and nothing more.
Smaller bullets (5.56mm) lost their energy quicker and were less stable resulting in them starting to tumble when meeting solid objects (amongst others: people) which means that they transmit much more of their energy into the poor slob.
Same goes to a lesser extent for pistol (and therefore SMG calibers). They might not carry as much energy but are much more effective in transmitting a lot of that energy into their target.

Juuuuuuust saying but if you want to show the amount of kinetic energy produced by a shell, I don't think using the E=mc2 formula would be of much help, using the E[SUB]k[/SUB]=1/2mv2
meaning you would be calculating the kinetic energy produced using half the mass times speed squared would be a bit more usefull i think, this is obviously in a situation where there is a vacuum and no other factors influencing the calculation
 

The_Phoenix

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We can all assume that small arms are going to be abstracted, but we can hope that there will be some way to properly represent the differences between bolt guns and semi-auto's for your infantry equipment. You simply cannot defend a bolt gun when your enemy has semi autos. If I had to personally choose between my Mosin Nagant or my AR15 it is a no brainer. If we look at history there were massive combat advantages when units were equipped with these. Hopefully in game this can still be represented somewhere.
 

LordGazer

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Modern assault rifles will have a significant effect on the squad level by allowing better suppression fire and like you indicate with your personal example they improve the morale of the individual soldier. The main suppression fire source of the squad still is and was in WW2 with the squad light machine gun. In HOI system this should be translated to increased morale and morale damage not soft attack.

LordG
 

Kovax

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There were also secondary effects of the difference between concentrating on semi-automatic rifles versus a better squad automatic weapon.

As Germany took losses, it tended to maintain nearly full firepower, as the casualties among the riflemen had a far less severe impact on the squad, and losses to the MG team were quickly replaced by riflemen who were also trained to operate the MG. As casualties increased, they ended up with little more than platoons with almost all of the MGs of the Company they started out as, and nearly as much firepower. At that point, the unit was often pulled back for training replacements. The lack of standard in-the-field replacements worked in Poland and France, but not in the later stages of the war when casualties became extreme, which is part of why the Wehrmacht ended up "eating" its own logistical tail in desperation.

US losses among the riflemen directly reduced the overall firepower of the unit, and required a steady stream of trained replacements. The "up-front" costs associated with that method were higher, but resulted in less down-time in the long run.
 

jju_57

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Modern assault rifles
Not sure if this was directed tot he AR15 comment or not.

The AR15 is not an assault rifle. It is not much different from a M1 Garand. Assault rifles are fully automatic or can fire in 3 round bursts. The AR15 is a semi-automatic where it takes a trigger pull to fire one round.

But the point is valid for WW2. Just like a modern assault rifle lays down massive suppression fire the M1 Garand did the same in WW2 and this is why it was way superior to any bolt action rifle.
 

Novacat

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The AR15 is not an assault rifle. It is not much different from a M1 Garand. Assault rifles are fully automatic or can fire in 3 round bursts. The AR15 is a semi-automatic where it takes a trigger pull to fire one round.

There has never really been an official definition of 'Assault Rifle', but generally, one of the biggest differences between the AR-15 and the M1 Garand is the use of detachable box magazines as opposed to clips. On top of that the AR-15 uses a scaled down round which is also a common feature among assault rifles. Its pretty fair to call the AR-15 an assault rifle.

Note that the progression from Rifle to Assault Rifle was done in steps, and not in any particular order. You first had the move to semi-automatic action but such rifles were generally not called assault rifles. Then you had the shortening of the round which enabled the rifleman to carry more ammunition at the cost of effective range. Then you had the introduction of the detachable box magazine which allowed far higher number of rounds to be fired before reload. The reason why the STG-44 was significant was that it was the first rifle to do all three things, thus being the first true 'assault rifle'. But you also had a number of weapons that did one or two of the three. The M1 Garand was semi-automatic. The SKS was semi-automatic and had a shortened round. The FG-42 and BAR were semi-automatic and had detachable box magazines.

The AR-15 is much, much closer to assault rifle than it is to just plain old rifle, even though the 'Assault Rifle' term was never a military term and infact originated from the civilian world.
 

Meanmanturbo

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Bullcrap :)

Look at this video. Hey, its not "real" full auto, its a hunting rifle, honest :)

He is using a bump fire device. Bump fire is a really ugly work around to turn a semi auto rifle into a full auto. It really screws over accuracy in a big way.

The semi auto rifle sits in a spring loaded stock and the whole rifle moves from the recoil. The spring then pushes the rifle forward and "bumps" the trigger into your static trigger finger, recoiling the rifle back again. Just look at how much the rifle moves compared to the stock. The principle behind bump fire would work with any semi auto rifle. And yes, you could build a device that would work for a Garand.
 
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jju_57

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Bullcrap :)

Look at this video. Hey, its not "real" full auto, its a hunting rifle, honest :)

The AR-15 is NOT a military grade weapon. I have a BB-gun that looks IDENTICAL to it. Does that make it a military weapon? It functions no differently then the M1-Garand, which

Removed -Had a dad
 
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