• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Maynesss

Recruit
2 Badges
Sep 25, 2017
1
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
I have been playing EU4 for about 2 years or so and it has always bothered me that there is no Slovenian culture in the game. More than that, it's just Austrian, which makes it even worse. Don't get me started about how dumb the culture groups in the game are, but this is such a drastic inaccuracy to say a Slavic people group is Germanic. The whole concept of deciding cultures in 1444 is pretty ridiculous, as a result a lot of cultures are just copy pasted from the modern day. If you look at the culture of Austria one would think that Slovenians just simply popped into existence some time after the 19th century which is far from the truth. The reality is quite opposite since most of modern day Austria was once populated by Slavic peoples, the ones who got assimilated, forcefully germanized or became modern day Slovenians. Austria was multicultural, but the Germanic influence won. There is even evidence that it's name could be connected to native Slavic name for the mountain Ostravica. Slavic languages took a while to get very distinct one from another, but in the oldest writing in Slovene or any Slavic language for that matter there are already signs of a regional dialect, which would split them from other Slavic people groups. The documents are called the Freising manuscripts and were written between 972 and 1039. The period during which the subjugated Slavic peoples were being converted to catholicism. The Salzburgian archdiocese forced it's Germanic culture very strongly.

h4sdcwngn1l11.png

Yellow is the Salzburgian archdiocese, red are the modern borders

Before subjugation there were 2 Slavic principalities that we know of, 1 being Carantania and the other Carniola. Carantania came into being after Samo's Tribal Union disintegrated following his death. It had unique features regarding it's functionalities. One of these being Ustoličevanje karantanskih knezov, translated to Inauguration of the Carantian princes, prince (knez) being the ruler. This tradition was kept for hundreds of years after Carantania lost it's external and internal independence. The kosezi (a class kind of resembling nobility) would elect a knez and have this ceremony on the Prince's Stone in Slovene to confirm he would do well for the people. After subjugation the tradition remained with Germanic rulers or dukes continuing the tradition (formally), many of them completed the tradition in Slovene, until one simply responded that he didn't understand the peasant asking him questions as part of the procedure. The prince's stone got replaced with the Duke's Chair in 1414 and the tradition loosely lived on until 1728, still in Slovene. The tradition was important because it gave legal power to the ruler aswell and it was meant to assure rights to the people as it symbolized the handing of power from the farmer to the ruler. It first took place in Gosposvetsko polje (Zollfeld) and later in Celovec (Klagenfurt). The Duke's Chair was moved into the town hall in 1660 and stopped being used as a symbol of lawfulness and right to rule by Maria Theresa in 1740 because of the pragmatic sanction.

6rgugc9yv1l11.png

Krn Castle was the center of Carantania and it covered most of modern day Austria

You might be thinking, but what does this have to do with 1444. Well here is a map of the "inner provinces", which were Slovenian with Germanic peoples represented by the gray stripes. This was in the 16th century. (The tiny island of Germans in the very south is Kočevski Rog, the locals were either assimilated or forced out after WW2, some still remain)

f4xvgdvwx1l11.png


As you see that the capital of the province Koroška (Kärnten) - Celovec (Klagenfurt) was still Slovenian, aswell as atleast half of the province and this is in the 16th century. The entirety of the ingame province Graz (štajerska) is Slovenian with the exception of Gradec (Graz) itself, which was also part Slovenian.

On the image bellow you can see the proportions between Slovene (blue) and Austrian (red) in Štajerska (Styria).
3pqzbnqpz1l11.png

Mid 16th century

On the image below you can see Slovenians as red in 1910.
wc02t5r3z1l11.png

1910

Germanic culture and their language was being enforced more aggressively during and after the reign of Maria Theresa and Franz Joseph II during the 2nd period of germanization. More and more Slovenians just decided that it is for the best to accept a Germanic identity, this is even happening today with the Slovenians that got stuck in Austria after WW2. Most Slovenians were farmers and were very devoted to the emperor. Whenever they would get taxed to heavily and they revolted in a Slovenian exclusive peasant revolts, once with Croatian peasants. The irony is that they though they emperor would send reinforcements to help them in their rightful cause, instead he obviously sent troops to stop the revolts. There were many separatist movements, one as an example is the one during the spring of nations of 1848 and it was based in Celovec (Klagenfurt).
There is no excuse to not have Slovenian culture be in the game. Slovaks, Maltese, Samis etc. to list a few that have their own cultures in the game. Nitra didn't even exist between 1444 and 1821, it stopped existing between 833 and 870 and yet it's a releasable nation and the Slovakian separatists will revolt to Nitra . The names Slovenia and Slovakia were meant to emphasize how the nations were different to their foreign rulers, many of the other cultures in EU4 didn't even exist at 1444, yet Slovenian is excluded? You can't argue it's too small, just look at Albanian, Basque, Maltese, Galician etc. Slovenian culture should have Krain (Kranjska, capital Ljubljana), Graz (Štajerska, capital Gradec), Kärnten (Koroška, capital Celovec), Gőrz (Goriška, capital Gorica) and the northern part of Istra (Istria), afterall Trieste (Trst) was Slovenian and is the capital province of Istra. Cornwall is a tag in the game, so clearly being different to the primary country is enough, yet Slovenian is excluded? Trst (Triste) was a majure trading port of Austria and it was populated with Slovenians. We have our own names for Venice (Benetke), Vienna (Dunaj) that differ hugely from the Croatian Mljeci and Beč. The closest thing to Slovenian regional names is controlling Austrian land as Croatia and Štajerska (Steiermark is upper Štajerska and Graz is lower) isn't even capitalized, it's simply shtajerska. Meanwhile the capitals of the Slovenian provinces remain in their german variant.
The Slovenian provinces were a very important part of Austria, therefore even the HRE. The rulers of Austria had to constantly think of our nation, we were under them for hundreds of years. Austria could have some interesting events related to this, but instead Slovenians are simply labeled as Austrian... I just wish that Paradox added Slovenian culture to the game and made Carniola or/and Carantania a releasable nation/releasable nations.
 
Upvote 0

Mingmung

General
34 Badges
Aug 23, 2014
1.810
756
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
Klagenfurt, Göriz, Laibach and Cilli would definetely be Slovenian.
index.php
 

Attachments

  • Slovenia.png
    Slovenia.png
    406,6 KB · Views: 322

TheArchduke

Doing his own thing
85 Badges
Oct 10, 2001
8.072
78
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Diplomacy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • East India Company
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
If you have not noticed the Bauernbund 1478 which is the dark green colour is actually a german peasant revolt.

And connecting a one time peasant revolt with "cultural" borders at a time where the concept was very vague and fluid is a bit quick.
 

Mingmung

General
34 Badges
Aug 23, 2014
1.810
756
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
If you have not noticed the Bauernbund 1478 which is the dark green colour is actually a german peasant revolt.

And connecting a one time peasant revolt with "cultural" borders at a time where the concept was very vague and fluid is a bit quick.
Look at the red line...

"Slowenische Sprach-grenze am 1500"

Don't jump to conclusions that quickly.
 

Sanguine Caesar

Župan
39 Badges
Aug 10, 2017
416
42
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
Here's a map I was able to come up with this morning based on the maps and discussion in this thread, as well as some of my own research and using some of the ideas from threads/mods by people such as @Paland0 @TheVikingWarrior and @Parmelion

EUIV Edited Slovene Map Closeup V2.0.png


I have incorporated the splits of both Kärnten an Graz, as well as splitting Krain into three provinces (Oberkrain, Unterkrain, and Celje). I have also split Trieste and Fiume off from Istria, and have made them into Austrian cores. I have also included Gorizia (Orange) and Cilli (Red) as independent tags (both guaranteed by Austria), and finally, I have added a wasteland to represent the Dolomite mountains and add a new strategic dimension to the area. So all in all that gives six possible Slovene provinces: Celje, Oberkrain, Unterkrain, Oststeiermark, Unterkärnten, and Görz.

I would also be in favour of a less radical approach which requires redrawing fewer provinces; in which case I would only advocate for Celje and the Istrian provinces to be added.

But I would certainly like to hear your opinions on this guys :D
 
Last edited:

mechanical_Critter

Lt. General
13 Badges
Dec 5, 2018
1.582
18
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
hey guys, I just read the thread, I have absolutely no knowledge on that matter. But… you could just have slovene culture just be starting as an accepted culture in austria, and that wouldn't hurt them at all (in fact it looks to be the game translation of an accepted rule). The process of germanisation during eu4 times is likewise well describe but, erm, Austria doing some culture conversions. No?
 

Svantevid

Captain
86 Badges
Apr 21, 2005
442
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Ancient Space
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
Here's a map I was able to come up with this morning based on the maps and discussion in this thread, as well as some of my own research and using some of the ideas from threads/mods by people such as @Paland0 @TheVikingWarrior and @Parmelion

View attachment 444563

I have incorporated the splits of both Kärnten an Graz, as well as splitting Krain into three provinces (Oberkrain, Unterkrain, and Celje). I have also split Trieste and Fiume off from Istria, and have made them into Austrian cores. I have also included Gorizia (Orange) and Cilli (Red) as independent tags (both guaranteed by Austria), and finally, I have added a wasteland to represent the Dolomite mountains and add a new strategic dimension to the area. So all in all that gives six possible Slovene provinces: Celje, Oberkrain, Unterkrain, Oststeiermark, Unterkärnten, and Görz.

I would also be in favour of a less radical approach which requires redrawing fewer provinces; in which case I would only advocate for Celje and the Istrian provinces to be added.

But I would certainly like to hear your opinions on this guys :D

Just to be clear: Cilli region is part of Styria, not Carniola. The split of Carniola in two (or even three provinces, Upper, Lower and Inner) is possible (traditional), but unnecessary. Not sure about Carinthia, either. The most important is the division of Styria (Graz) into Upper and Lower (Untersteiermark, not Oststeiermark), where Lower could also be named Cilli, or split to allow for Cilli.

And Upper Styria should retain Austrian culture.
 

Sanguine Caesar

Župan
39 Badges
Aug 10, 2017
416
42
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
The most important is the division of Styria (Graz) into Upper and Lower (Untersteiermark, not Oststeiermark), where Lower could also be named Cilli, or split to allow for Cilli.
To be clear, I already split off Cilli/Untersteiermark (the province in red), but it was split from Krain. Graz was also split into north and south, the north (Graz) being Austrian, and the south being Slovene. I don't really have a name for the southern province, as there aren't many major cities in the region, so I decided on Oststeiermark as a placeholder.

And Upper Styria should retain Austrian culture.
Both Graz and Steiermark/Judenburg would also remain Austrian.

Just to be clear: Cilli region is part of Styria, not Carniola.
Arranging states is tough given the 3-5 province confines. Perhaps instead the Inner Austria state would be made up of the Carinthian and Carniolan provinces, and a new Styria state would be made to incorporate the traditionally Styrian territories.

The split of Carniola in two (or even three provinces, Upper, Lower and Inner) is possible (traditional), but unnecessary. Not sure about Carinthia, either.
Perhaps not, but Austria does tend to be pretty weak against powers such as Bohemia and the Ottomans, so is an increase in development really going to far? I've played mods that add these provinces, and it's not like they're unclickable or anything. Not only that, but more potential provinces means a higher chance of Slovene culture being included: a three-province culture runs the risk of being ignored, but six provinces likely would not. Of course you are entitled to your opinions. ;)