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In my opinion sliders are a good idea and should stay.

1. As for technical argument (not very convenient and easy to forget to move sliders - target settings instead) - what if the player in the long run intends to move more than one slider? You would have to define a complicated set of priorities. I think an option to set the nearest move of sliders would do.

2. As for "ideological" argument (they don't reflect the reality) - I think sliders are good enough in balancing two things: that policies can change dramatically overnight (new monarch, different geo-political situation etc.) but social structures react with inertia and the influence of policies (especially in pre-modern era) is limited.

3. Gamewise, one could consider allowing a possibility of moving a slider by more than 1 (with proportionally higher stability hit) but IMO it would not be fair - allowing small countries to reach their "ideal" too soon and too cheaply.
 
The Phoenix said:
I would prefer not having sliders at all (except for army maintenance, perhaps, and for sound/music volume). Just laws and strength relations (and economical circumstances; a land rich in wood and naval supplies would be in a good position to build lots of ships).

A good idea. However, these may be too specific to a country. You would need a set of laws for almost each country or perhaps a set for each group of similar countries. The sliders are a good indicator of general country policies. As mentioned though there seems to be one 'BEST' setting for these sliders based on which country you are playing.

Mowers idea is a very good one. The difficulty there is how do you determine the policies - or magnetic north - based on just the actions of the monarch? Do you move an increment toward land/aristocracy every time you raise a cavalry army?

The CK idea has some merit. You indicate which direction you would like to head and at some unspecified time you achieve your goal. This way you can direct your country but not have absolute control over when you will attain your goal.

:)
 
I agree with the notion that the sliders should be replaced by some more sophisticated system to determine the unique properties of nations. And they should no longer be just set arbitrarily, but based on external influences like suggested here.
 
Mowers said:
Sliders did work okay but where they realistic or historical? Not really.

I would suggest that we need to retain sliders in some form to indicate the structure of society within a nation but that direct player control of a slider is removed.

Instead of direct control I would suggest a system where the ruler's relationship and decision making process vis-a-vis the Ck characters and vicky POPs define the slider movement.

We should attempt to remove the definitive point or combination of sliders that would be the best solution for a country throughout its history. Whilst it would be impossible to code a game where an ideal slider position can not be sought it would be a much improved game if as time changes in game so this "magnetic north" moves.

Thus there is no one point through out history where there is an ideal set of sliders and that as countries evolve through various technical and social means that this "magnetic north" changes in an fairly elusive manner. Thus one can never be perfect and one has alot of fun watching how actual decisions and internal relationships effect the dynamics of a country.
I really like your idea. The player shouldn't have an automatic control of the sliders, there should be adjustments made based on random events only. The kind of policies followed by the player should influence which events happen (and with which frequence), but this should stay mostly random.

But a few critical decisions should be made, like in Victoria where you can determine what social or political policies are used. Those could be decided by the player, but with important consequences (benefits, and drawbacks, depending on circumstances, and preferably both).
 
Control over DP sliders only through player's decisions - extraction for Vote Thread
This is an extraction of ideas from the current discussion thread. These ideas are from various people from the thread. I only merge them into one post.

This is old extraction, newer extraction is available on post 48 in this thread or under this link.

Sliders did work okay but where they realistic or historical? Not really.

We need to retain sliders in some form to indicate the structure of society within a nation but that direct player control of a slider is removed.

Instead of direct control there should be a system where the ruler's relationship and decisions making process vis-a-vis the Ck characters and vicky POPs define the slider movement.

We should attempt to remove the definitive point or combination of sliders that would be the best solution for a country throughout its history. Whilst it would be impossible to code a game where an ideal slider position can not be sought it would be a much improved game if as time changes in game so this "magnetic north" moves.

Thus there is no one point through out history where there is an ideal set of sliders and that as countries evolve through various technical and social means that this "magnetic north" changes in an fairly elusive manner. Thus one can never be perfect and one has alot of fun watching how actual decisions and internal relationships effect the dynamics of a country.
 
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Ability to set a target for DP sliders - extraction for Vote Thread
This is an extraction of ideas from the current discussion thread. These ideas are from various people from the thread. I only merge them into one post.

There could be an ability to move the DP slider automaticaly to position you want to reach. Player would set a slider goal and the slider would travel by itself over time to the indicated position.
 
Ability to move DP sliders by more steps - extraction for Vote Thread
This is an extraction of ideas from the current discussion thread. These ideas are from various people from the thread. I only merge them into one post.

It would be good to have a possibility to move DP sliders by more steps in period of 10 years, where each step would cost the player larger stab hit. First move in the 10 years period would cost no stab hit, second move in the same period would cost 1 point of stability, third move would cost 2 points of stability. So in 10 years period would the player be able to move DP slider by 3 steps in a cost of 3 points of stability. He would be unable to move DP slider, if he wouldn't have enough stab points to pay for the move.
 
KaRei said:
Sliders did work okay but where they realistic or historical? Not really.

Is Norway suddenly rebelling against Denmark in 1419 realistic or historical? No, but I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed.

Moreover, an incremental policy change, imposed by a long-ruling faction seems plausible enough for me. The "guiding hand of a nation's spirit" or whatever the player is considered to be could make such little shoves in the country's fate.

We need to retain sliders in some form to indicate the structure of society within a nation but that direct player control of a slider is removed.

Umm... We need sliders, but we shouldn't be able to move them?

Instead of direct control there should be a system where the ruler's relationship and decisions making process vis-a-vis the Ck characters and vicky POPs define the slider movement.

How do Vicky POPs affect these sliders that I can't move directly?

We should attempt to remove the definitive point or combination of sliders that would be the best solution for a country throughout its history. Whilst it would be impossible to code a game where an ideal slider position can not be sought it would be a much improved game if as time changes in game so this "magnetic north" moves.

Totally lost me on this one. Here's the translation I take from it:

You don't want an "ideal" combination for a given country to remain ideal throughout the span of the game. So Spain might have full serfdom and narrow-minded as ideal while it cleans up Granada's moslems. And yet, it'd be ideal for suppressing the Dutch revolt too, and the knocking over of American minors... Wait, it still seems ideal throughout, until a hyper-teching Venice kicks the Armada's ass.

I'm comfortable with the trade-offs system.

An Austria that tries to make a go at uniting southern Germany can go for land-concentration, but he's not going to have a good navy for holding onto the Italian coastlines.

A super-Sweden holding down Norway and Novgorod is going to have stability problems and might have to go full land-full narrow-minded to stare down Moscow and convert the heathens.

In either case, if the player insists upon being expansionist to whatever point the AI and the game engine will let him get away with, I don't see a need to change the sliders on him.

On the other hand, say I'm playing France and I just want to have my cultural territory, Savoy, Alsace-Lorraine, and the low countries. Once I take these lands, I'll probably start pushing from land-focus to naval-focus. Colonies, trade, and all that.

Thus there is no one point through out history where there is an ideal set of sliders and that as countries evolve through various technical and social means that this "magnetic north" changes in an fairly elusive manner. Thus one can never be perfect and one has alot of fun watching how actual decisions and internal relationships effect the dynamics of a country.

Random events, and the occasional "push" are fine. The whole centralization/decentralization thing I'll admit was a bit messy. Stability vs. slider moves could be fun trade-offs. A "hands-off" situation, where I have sliders but can't directly move them? No thanks.

What I'd like is to be able to push the slider one move beyond the current setting. Nothing complicated, no "keep moving naval until I tell you to stop", just move it the first time, get the (can't move for 10 years) thing, then move it again. Get a "this policy setting will not be implemented for 10 years" message.
 
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I'd like to have sliders moddable, so if I don;t like them I can release a mod to change them.
 
The change from EU1 -> 2 was that a whole set of hard coded national characteristics turned into sliders that could be changed via events (with the occasional change by the player too). Having sliders that you can't change would make the game feel a lot more like EU1, except that your position could change over time.

I really like the idea of being able to shape your country, and thats what moving sliders let you do. Not always very historical (except maybe for centralisation) but it is a fine game mechanic. If they are going to replace it then I would want something that continued to give me control.
 
Brasidas said:
Umm... We need sliders, but we shouldn't be able to move them?
I think that Mowers had in mind to remove sliders and replace them only with some sort of indicators that would show your situation in land.
By removing of direct control he ment that only your decisions (like in events) would form your DP. His idea was that the game would recognize your style of government.

I didn't know how to rewrite his idea to another form (more clear), so it is mostly recopied.
 
This just seems like an uglier Vicky feature. There's some mechanism sitting there, affecting me and my nation, and its awkward to manipulate. That does nothing to improve my gaming experience.

I'm not asking for Civ, where Venice can flipflop between Monarchy and Republic and back again in two turns (but only if I control the city with the Pyramids! lol). Gradual deliberate changes in policy, which can be sidetracked by random events, mind you, is not some ahistoric hydra that needs to be vanquished, imho.
 
I want the ability to pass individual laws rather than tweaking abstract DP sliders.

Instead of "Centralization +1", I want "Crown removes rights of low justice from the nobles" or similar.

Instead of "Mercantilism +1", I want "Allow chartering of private companies to explore the New World" or similar.

Instead of "Narrowmindedness +1", I want "Expel the unbelievers" or similar.

And so forth.
 
KaRei said:
I think that Mowers had in mind to remove sliders and replace them only with some sort of indicators that would show your situation in land.
By removing of direct control he ment that only your decisions (like in events) would form your DP. His idea was that the game would recognize your style of government.

I didn't know how to rewrite his idea to another form (more clear), so it is mostly recopied.

Thats exactly how I envisage it.

As countries evolve as does the magnetic north for "sliders". As countries are always changing due to technology and socially the magnetic north would always be changing regardless of whether you follow the same strategy.

As it happens bradius there are some very simple spectrum games which model this sort of problem in files that are 218K, ( http://www.volny.cz/tom-cat/dictator/eng/dictator.htm#stahovadlo ) so not terribly complex :)

My Concept

A solution needs to be kept relatively simple and to avoid constant vicky style micro management. A system that gives one basic historical tools and presents (perhaps in an abstract manner) historical problems. A system where various power blocks within your state compete for power between themselves and with you against a gradually evolving backdrop of social and technical change. The gameplay would be managing the changing situation and ensuring that the pace of change is neither to slow nor to fast to avoid "civil war" type scenarios. Indeed there will be times when you are unable to avoid "clashes" or make unpleasant calls. This then provides the internal context which provides a lense through which you associate and relate to other powers. Something that was sorely lacking to date.

I am suggesting we remove the ahistoric, unrealistic and rather tedious existing "internal dynamics" that exist in Eu2 and replace it with my alternative (or varient of) whilst ensuring that doesnt do the following

1) require more in game time to manage
2) Require constant micro management (ie its geared to big events)

Exact details

I would suggest that the gameplay driver is a combination of various proposals that can randomly develop put to the ruler by the various different social factions (each with their own political, religous, military, economic influence ratings) that invariably have a no win answer (each answer will change one or more factions political, military, religous and economic ratings in various combinations) creating tensions that will rise and fall against a backdrop of various issues such as:

1) Your economic development and rate of change (inculsive of trade patterns)
2) Cultural and governmental development and rate of change
3) Vassal and foreign relationship status
4) External/ internal religious development
5) Trade patterns
6) Technological development
7) Relative tension amoungst factions and/ or the ruler
8) Relative changes in military power


Thus we get the following sorts of events happening:

Guilds want greater control over trade, you dont. If you give the guilds what they want they are more loyal, support you militarily (oh yes the merchant class is key in this period to providing military funds and equipment) and will give you a larger proportion of the income.

The downside is that it will annoy other countries, restrict the flow of trade in the long term, restrict the flow of "technology", perhaps annoy the class called "petty nobles" and perhaps even cause an economic clash with another external power.

You have defined the "sliders" through your own actions. Whatever decision you make the effect will have a different outcome 100 years later because the "guilds" for technological reasons dont have so much power or the trade route concerned is much bigger than it was before or the "petty nobles" are now a key part of the military who you cant afford to annoy because you are at war etc etc
 
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Measuring whether the Berghers, the nobility, the Clergy, or the peasants like/hate you and how much power you give/take away from them isn't reducing micromanagement, its increasing it.

The secret to winning Dictator was dumping the Secret Police, and minimizing the monthly cost while always having one strong ally. It was all about getting a feel for the gross effects of the SP intel report, then keeping that tally in your head after you cut their balls off and relied on your main power base and kept another waiting in the wings if they demanded to much money.

The Sliders in EU2, by comparison, let you give a small shove in national characteristics every now and then. The "dynamic magnetism" that you propose sounds shaky to me.

For one, it naturally seems to go against the grain of your two caveats. If you introduce feuding factions and the government has to actively weigh them against each other, you've got Crown of the North. It was indeed a headache that required both time and constant attention. Been there, done that, got bored. I don't want to waste my time with it. Rebellions? Sure. If I've been too belligerant or if there's high war exhaustion or perhaps I've taxed the people too heavily. A war because I've favoured the landed gentry against the clergy? No thanks.

If there are some events that affect sliders, thats fine. I don't see a need to impose sliders and to use a system of balancing factions and give up direct control of slider movement. Its complicating and unfun in my experience.

And the name isn't "Brad".
 
By setting a range of dates during which events may be triggered, you can have the effect of the transient dominance of the guilds in your example. No major game overhaul is required. If you want the changes in DP during their dominance reversed, simply link the event to a "counter-event" that reverses it sometime after a certain date.
 
Brasidas said:
Measuring whether the Berghers, the nobility, the Clergy, or the peasants like/hate you and how much power you give/take away from them isn't reducing micromanagement, its increasing it.

Surely that entirely depends on the manner in which its coded? :)
Seems to me that arguing an idea is bad because it will be badly coded sounds like youre quite the seer :)

Brasidas said:
The secret to winning Dictator was dumping the Secret Police, and minimizing the monthly cost while always having one strong ally. It was all about getting a feel for the gross effects of the SP intel report, then keeping that tally in your head after you cut their balls off and relied on your main power base and kept another waiting in the wings if they demanded to much money.

Interesting.

Brasidas said:
The Sliders in EU2, by comparison, let you give a small shove in national characteristics every now and then. The "dynamic magnetism" that you propose sounds shaky to me.

Sliders quickly moved to one position and stayed there for the rest of the game, they were completely undynamic in practice. I am suggesting an alternative, you are telling me that keeping the current simulation is actually a good thing regardless?
Shakey? Is this a seer thing? :)

Brasidas said:
For one, it naturally seems to go against the grain of your two caveats. If you introduce feuding factions and the government has to actively weigh them against each other, you've got Crown of the North. Been there, done that, got bored. I don't want to waste my time with it. Rebellions? Sure. If I've been too belligerant or if there's high war exhaustion or perhaps I've taxed the people too heavily. A war because I've favoured the landed gentry against the clergy? No thanks.

Youve drawn the conclusion of crown of the north, I suggest you read again, I am not suggesting that.

I'll try again, I want the game to model a simple internal dynamism that provides a set of constraints and issues that effect external relations and opportunities. Currently the game fails to model this and thus the external relations model is flawed simply because of a lack of the aforementioned. Any basic school level history book of the time will explain that the two are deeply intertwined for either to be effectively ignored.

The current model of internal dynamics limits the game. A simple improvement provides the internal dynamics by which we play out more interesting histories. We remove the ahistorical elements of the game to keep the game simple.

Keeping it simple.

Brasidas said:
If there are some events that affect sliders, thats fine. I don't see a need to impose sliders and to use a system of balancing factions and give up direct control of slider movement. Its complicating and unfun in my experience.

Thats fine.
I'd settle for a form of simple dynamic sliders but the direct control of slider movement with its "ultimate position" is neither historical nor realistic and it limits game play and you are arguing this is "fun"?


Brasidas said:
By setting a range of dates during which events may be triggered, you can have the effect of the transient dominance of the guilds in your example. No major game overhaul is required. If you want the changes in DP during their dominance reversed, simply link the event to a "counter-event" that reverses it sometime after a certain date.

Reliance on events is an admission your base model doesnt work.
By the end of years of work on 100s of events the model still didnt work, indeed it only served to prove you can fix a leaky model with events.
Events were nice but they didnt solve problems, you have to fix problems at the source not just cover up the symptoms if you wish to solve issues.

Brasidas said:
And the name isn't "Brad".

sure thing :)
 
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Sliders quickly moved to one position and stayed there for the rest of the game, they were completely undynamic in practice. I am suggesting an alternative, you are telling me that keeping the current simulation is actually a good thing regardless? Shakey? Is this a seer thing?
Not entirely so. There are plenty of (random)events that move the sliders about, most of the time away from what you would want.
(or is this just in AGC-EEP?)
 
Registered said:
Not entirely so. There are plenty of (random)events that move the sliders about, most of the time away from what you would want.
(or is this just in AGC-EEP?)

Indeed, this is correct, but they did not solve the problem with the model.

You can "force" through history but I'd rather see an engine that doesnt rely on forced history to create plausibility as it creates increasingly implausible outcomes the further down the time line you are.