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Zardnaar

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After playing this game way to much here are my thoughts on the sliders. Generally I was addicted to high innovative, free subject type nations due to the economy and technology benefits but recently I have been playing as all sorts of weird combinations in order to try them out. THis mini guide or whatever is assuming that each slider is maxed out.

Centralisation vs Decentralisation.
This sldier is unfortionately a no brainer. Centralistion is strictly better than decentralistion 100% of the time. The war weariness advantage offered by decentralisation is a to minor a benefit and situation to really matter. The final nail in the coffin is you need to have a high centralisation slider to westernise as a non European nation. The only real negative of moving your slider down the centralisation path is the almost universally bad options- stability hits or rebels. Rebels can be a killer literally if you are an OPM, ergo move this slider later in the game.

Aristocracy vs Plutocracy.
Generally plutocracy is better but it does depend. This slider is really a choice between a warmonger state and a trading power. The increased cavalry cost at full plutocracy is almost irrelevent except for the smallest (or poorest) nations. High aristocracy gives cheap and better cavalry.

Serfdom vs Free Subjects.
Generally speaking Free subjects is almost always better than serfdom. Cheap infantry in the early game can be nice but a -20% penalty to tech rates hurts compared with a 2-% bonus of free subjects. Unlike Aristocracy Serfdom gives no combat advantage to infantry. Cheap galleys are also a bit meh. The 25% stability bonus however is very good for full serfdom as free subjects get a 25% penalty to stability hits.

Innovative vs Narrowminded.
Once upon a time I used to think that innovative was always better than narrowminded. A 15% bonus to technology costs vs a 15% penalty to tennology costs. Narrowminded however does offer some very attractive bonuses in terms of misisonaries, stabilty, war exhaustion and colonial growth. Narrowminded however is well suited to an aggressive nation that can easily recover stability as Innovative also sucks up a stability penalty. The tech penalty is not a big of a drawback as implied in the western tech group due to neighbour bonus but innovative is always better in a non western tech group as it is required to westernise and modernise your units. Religious conversion however is going to be difficult as an innovative country often requiring Judea/Mecca/Rome and/or a national idea as well. Numerous beneficial religious decisions require some amount of narrow minded as well.

Merchantilism vs Free Trade.
This one is almost another no brainer. Free trade is better 90% of the time than merchantilism. THe exception may be for trade league nations and nations that can easily be aggressive that can seize multiple CoTs. Even then alot of those nations may be stuggling vs traders from countries like Navarra, Ulm, Holland etc. Other countries just don't care to much about merchants due to rich provinces and taxes at least early in the game. Merchants can be nice, but so can a large stack of land units. Merchantilism value is almost directly tied to military prowess.

Offensive vs Defensive.
Generally I find offensive almost always better than defensive. Defensive can be fun however and it is not useless. My personal opinion however leans towards the best defense is a good offense and a mobile army of full offensive for example seems better than the advantages offed by defensive. The AI rarely assaults your forts though if you are full defensive so it is not a bad option by any means and random events often pop up offering a slider change either way. Usually amoung the last sliders I will move with the rare exception of some countries that start with almost full offensive sliders.

Land vs Naval.
Usually the last slider I move regardless. This one is also another no brainer. Land is almost always better than naval. The reason being naval combat in EUIII is rather limited and there are only a few viable island nations in the game anyway such as England. Naval does offer advantages to colonisation but England is even outclassed at that by Portugal/Navarra/Holland (assuming a human player). A colonial empire will noot offer the same advantages as say an aggressive land power in Europe. The final nail in the coffin is even as England, Hansa or Malacca etc eventually I will end up with max land sliders anyway. The cheap ship cost naval offers is easily mitigated by high value targets a land power has or the shipwrights national idea that offers half price ships.

Quality vs Quantity.
More or less exactly what is says. Generally I find quantity better as there are ways around your low man power limits such as becoming the HRE or spamming barracks in the late game. Quantity however can be very good early in the game and horde nations often have a high quantity slider. With some of the epic cascading alliances one can provoke in Europe manpower can be very important when it comes to grinding down the HRE for example.

Putting it All togather.
This game rewards extremes with most of the sliders offering great advantages if maxed out. Innovative+Free subjects for example is a great combo for technology while Narrowminded and Sefdom results in a very stable country which is great for changin national ideas, government types, or moving your capital or shrugging off stability hitting random events. I'll offer some sterotypes below. Sterotypes can be reinforced with national ideas of course. THe stereotypes often blend into each other in the 1600's as the sliders can end up wherever you lipke by then

"Russia"
A stereotypical Russian nation has max serfdom, aristocracy, narrowminded, quantity and land sliders. Trade whats that? Such a nation is often very stable and can be a pain in to assault and can shrug of catastrophic losses at the front. War weariness isn't that much of a problem espcially if you are actually Russian and have the Russian Patriarchy national event. As Russia I have actualy lost 40k stacks in combat and shrugged off losses of 80k+ as you reinforce rapidly and war weariness is only a factor in long drawn out combats. Cheap infantry and cavalry actually matters when you need to spam out 100+ regiments in a month or two.

"Germany"
The opposite of Russia almost as they pick quality over quantity. High aristocracy will often be chosen along with ideas like military drill and battlefield commisions. The Teutonic Order and Burgandy offer good archtypes for a "German" stereo type.

"Dutch"
A Dutch nation has high innovative, free trade and plutocracy sliders. A stereotype is that they are rich and advanced. Their militart sliders will lack by comparison early on but they will be one of the first nations to get a new unit type. A historical stereo type will also have a high naval slider but in game land is probably better. Holland and Navarra are excellent examples of a Dutch type nation espicially when combined with economic based national ideas.

"England"
The stereotypical English nation has high naval, innovative, free subjects and high quality sliders. In terms of roleplaying you can go either way on the merchantilism or free trade slider based on your prefered time period of English history. Personally I do not like "English" nations but England, The Hansa and Malacca make good "English" nations. You will rock at sea and kind of suck on land. The new world and Indonesia area are particuly attractive to "English" nations.

"Spain"
Spainish nations are based around colonisation, narrowmindedness and high levels of serfdom and aristocracy. Trade takes aback set at least early on and you may actually stay Catholic for warmongering bonuses. Castille,Portugal and some fo the Italian states are good examples of "Spainish" nations along with Byzantium minus the colonisation bits.

"USA"
A USA nation will be similar to a modern democracy. Most of the sliders will be maxed out and alot of the other "nations" often resemble this in the late game. A USA nation will often have max centralisation sliders, max plutcracy, free subjects, free trade, innovative, quality, and land sliders. As a general rule you will have the most advanced units that fight very well. A Hearts of Iron fascist "USA" nation will be very simialr but with maybe high aristocracy, narrowminded and maybe serfdom sliders. They won't be quite as advanced perhaps but will be about as scary on land combat as the game engine allows. Late game sliders often blend togather with the main difference being maybe 2-3 sliders based on personal preference or goals of any EuIII game.

It is very easy in this game to get addicted to free trade, innovative, free subjects and plutocracy. This means wealth and technology and using thiese combos you can plow through the AI without to much trouble. Most nations however will take centuries to get to this point (Holland and Navarra being exceptions). Persoanlly I was quite impressed with a high narrowmindedness in testing as the drawback wasn't that bad and the stability was nice for large land based European empires. Being very rich can often negate the drawback of the tech penalty. IMHO there are only a few sketchy sliders where one is usually better 80% of the time- decentraslisation, merchantilism and naval sliders seem to be traps outside of very specific countries or goals. Decentrailistion seems to be always inferior to centralistion.
 

asamy

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Good observation!
 

Slym

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Opms actually get way more out of the +2 base tax than they do out of the tax bonus from being centralized. I agree that centralization is almost always better, but if you're a highly centralized OPM at game start, particularly one with a good trade good (here's looking at you, Navarra) you can use it to get an early advantage you can get literally no other way. Of course, the other 2 possibilites are less good (manpower) and really bad (stability) for an OPM, so it's really only worth it if you are willing to reload.

So not totally a no trainer. You obviously always want to end the game completely centralized, but you don't necessarily always want to move the slider towards centralization every time.
 

Nunn45

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Very good :D

I myself tend to go the Centralised/Pluto/Free/Inno/offensive/quality route with land or naval depending which nation im playing :D, its the best combination for me personaly.
 

unmerged(27034)

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I dislike narrowminded for colonial powers because of the "religious migration" events.

Defensive is useful if you own Siberia, lots of islands or other places where rebel hunting takes a lot of time.
 

Dustman

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Defensive is good for heavy artillery stacks. -25% cost is nice, plus small stacks can capture forts much faster.

Strong Western traders can drop Centralization and Free Subjects. Quite few event with negative strings attached have a move to decentralization option, which is moot when fully decentralized. Lower spy defense might hurt tho. When main income come from trade, taxes aren't as important anymore.

Naval helps a lot with naval force limits and upkeep. For a heavy colonizer both can be huge and dwarf army upkeep. Doesn't apply to nation that stretch same continents. Similar considerations apply to Aristocracy vs. Plutocracy. You forgot to mention diplo bonus from high aristocracy, and it's quite useful, especially for a land based mercantilist.

The only slider I don't think much about is Quality/Quantity. Huge discipline penalty for later makes it rather useless. Would be useful with higher force limits tho.
 

unmerged(264070)

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Hello,

Good post! :) I don't agree fully with you on the land/naval slider though: In my current holland/netherlands game, I find the +20% tariffs bonus from going full naval a very great boon. Also, the increased naval force limits and cheaper ships make for a much cheaper navy. Which is very important, because I need a navy twice as big as my naval force limits to keep my tariffs at 100% efficiency.

Bottom line: going land as a big colonial empire will cost you a LOT of upkeep money on your fleet and will make you miss out on tariffs, both of which hurt your land army as well!

EDIT: I like to blast my enemies apart with artillery, so I also like going full defensive :). I guess the role of artillery will be even greater in the new 5.2 patch (although I haven't played it) because of the decreased manpower (1 art division gives 1 inf division a 50% defensive bonus, greatly reducing its casualties).
 

cuendillar

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Not sure if an extreme position is best on all sliders though. I found myself fairly often stay close to the middle of the Innovative/Narrowminded slider. Getting at least some missionaries if very handy if expanding into different-religion regions. Jerusalem/Rome/Mecca may be easily accessible for the Byzantines and Italians, but not so for German or Dutch colonizers. With maxed Free Subjects, not getting fully innovative isn't such a huge disadvantage in teching anyway.

Admittedly I haven't figured out sliders yet, but I remember it as being quite annoying to play Holland and being unable to convert the Native American territories. At least the Europeans lands were convertible with auto-spread and force-converting nations to let them convert provinces for me before actually taking territory.
 

Zardnaar

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One can get missionaries via spamming cathdrals, Mecca/Medina/Rome, various decisions and that national idea. Even a fully innovative empire should have enough to go around if you want them bad enough.
Fully innovative Hansa into GB, 12.75 magistrates and 1.65 missionaries per year.

EU3_69.jpg


Part of the trick in breaking an addiction to full innovative is making the use of being narrowminded. That is missionaries and the bonus to stability. IN this empire above (I have American territories as well) it takes around a year to regain each point of stability even with spamming cathedrals. A fully narrowminded empire would take 8 months or so IIRC maybe 7. I often find myself adjusting the innovative slider later in the game as some missionaries are nice early on. The difference is somehting like this I suppose. In the above game I had a massive war with Austria that resulted in tens of thousands dead over several years that drove my war weariness score up to just under 20. I eventually won but it actually took several years for my manpower to recover and close to 15 years to get rid of my WW along with massive revolts. Similar time period as Russia but I have 500k manpower. I lose an 80k stack of men fight a majpr war and no one really cares (low WW). And that is without the Russian Patriarch decisions as Byzantium still exists.
 
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unmerged(264070)

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Not sure if an extreme position is best on all sliders though. I found myself fairly often stay close to the middle of the Innovative/Narrowminded slider. Getting at least some missionaries if very handy if expanding into different-religion regions. Jerusalem/Rome/Mecca may be easily accessible for the Byzantines and Italians, but not so for German or Dutch colonizers. With maxed Free Subjects, not getting fully innovative isn't such a huge disadvantage in teching anyway.

Admittedly I haven't figured out sliders yet, but I remember it as being quite annoying to play Holland and being unable to convert the Native American territories. At least the Europeans lands were convertible with auto-spread and force-converting nations to let them convert provinces for me before actually taking territory.

This. As Holland, it is no problem to take a few points towards narrowminded (to neutral perhaps) for the missionaries, and let the income flux from trade and the free subjects sliders still keep you well ahead of the opposition.
 

Dustman

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All sliders have hidden modifiers to number of events. With going Innovative you trigger quite few events resulting in one move toward Narrowmindness, or one stab loss. Add high Free Subjects, and WW can kill you or throw years behind. Without CAD and Trading in Wine, plus number of Fine Arts Academies, Innovative/FS combo is a deadly trap. Better science doesn't compensate for time lost recovering stability. If non-tolerated religions are present, stab costs skyrocket. Well, with high Serfdom and Narrowmindness, combo of Peasant War and Religious Turmoil can be as entertaining :)

Stability is one of the factors to consider when choosing Centralization/Decentralization. Latter results in far fewer years spent on stab recovery during whole campaign. Most likely in ten years of gameplay, you get at least 2-3 events where stab loss is a better alternative. If recovery time is an year or so per point, main benefits of high centralization are lost. Of course, if you fully centralized but can recover stab in two month, it doesn't matter...
 

cywang86

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For me, it's usually aristocracy since most of the times you start at high aristocracy, and it's usually near late 1700s when I'm done maxing centralize, quality, innovative, and free subject.
 

n00blord

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I disagree with your aris/pluto assesment. The shock bonus isnt just for cavalry, its for your whole army in combat. Thus you get a +1 shock modifier during the battle phase which is beyond awesome. And 25% off cavalry is a huge bonus. Mid game when your army is over one million large, this is a ridicolous amount of cash.

The difference between max quality and max quantity is 20% discipline. Thats 20% damage less than a full quality nation. Whatever else quantity has, it loses due to this. Plus its one of the easiest sliders to max. Take grand army (or was it nat conscripts ? )and see those millitary reforms max out the slider for you. Even in 5.2 the gain in monthly mp will be practically non-existant.
 

anubisfike

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I don't agree with you concerning free trade being a no brainer. You will never keep a "full" monopoly with free trade for any amount of time (full meaning you have 6 merchants and there's only a single other merchant of another nation in the CoT, 13 free slots) and if you have a very wealthy CoT either as a merchant republic or as a continent spanning empire just keeping a full monopoly gives way more income than trading in 5-10 CoT's as a free trader, as long as your trade efficiency is good (even if it's only decent you will still get a huge amount of income from just a single CoT).

For example let's say your trade efficiency is 100% and you're playing the ottomans with mercantilism slider at max. You've expanded a lot in both europe and asia and have a CoT in Istanbul that's worth 3000 ducats. Now if you're able to keep a full monopoly (not hard with max mercantilism and near 100% ownership of trade value) you will get almost the entirety of this value as income from the CoT (modified by your trade efficiency, which for simplicity is 100% in this example), so basically nearly 3000 income from a single CoT. The same applies to any merchant republic, for example the Hansa can very easily increase their CoT value to several thousand by the time monopolies become available to them and they will likely have a higher trade efficiency than the Ottomans do in a normal game.

From the wiki (bolded part is the real kicker here):

The benefits of a monopoly:

Receive 20% more revenue than you would with 5 merchants, so that a monopoly counts as 6 merchants for income purposes.
Receive the appropriate income for all empty slots in the CoT, as though you had merchants in those, too. This can be quite a lot.
Receive 1 extra merchant (multiple monopolies don't give multiple extra merchants).

Now compare this to a free trader who can't focus on any one CoT but has to trade all around the globe to maximize their income. Let's say in a good scenario there's one CoT in the world with 2000 income, three or four with 1000-1999 value and the rest are spread out between 1-999. There will always be 20 merchants in nearly every CoT you trade in, even if you have a monopoly. That means you can't access even a majority (51%<, of course you'll access more than the other merchants if you compare them one by one) of the income from any single CoT.

Let's say you're trading in a CoT with 1300 value as a free trader England but you can't reliably keep a monopoly there because you're competing against other free traders such as Navarra, Holland etc. You have 5 merchants there at 100% trade efficiency (5 merchants means you access about 25% of the trade value in the CoT). That gives you a bit more than 300 ducats worth of income. Now if you want to access as much income as the Ottomans do in their one CoT you would have to reliably trade in 10 CoT's with this kind of value, assuming you have 5 merchants in the CoT most of the time.

Not only does this use up a lot more merchants, especially if you're competing against other players in a MP game, but it also takes a lot more time for your merchants to reach the CoT's that are farther away. Considering that usually the CoT's with the highest value are in the americas or Asia, this is a bother if you haven't moved your capital. That means it can take several months in order for you to regain the income you lost from getting competed out, whereas it takes about 15 days for a mercantilistic state with a CoT in their capital to get back to their previous levels, assuming that they only need to compete away 5 merchants. The only problem with mercantilism is a comparably slower growth of merchants than free traders. If you lose your monopoly and, let's say, 10 new merchants make their way into the CoT it can take longer for you to compete them all out and restore your "full" monopoly, this is the biggest downside to being a mercantilistic state.
 

The-King

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I disagree with your aris/pluto assesment. The shock bonus isnt just for cavalry, its for your whole army in combat. Thus you get a +1 shock modifier during the battle phase which is beyond awesome. And 25% off cavalry is a huge bonus. Mid game when your army is over one million large, this is a ridicolous amount of cash.

The difference between max quality and max quantity is 20% discipline. Thats 20% damage less than a full quality nation. Whatever else quantity has, it loses due to this. Plus its one of the easiest sliders to max. Take grand army (or was it nat conscripts ? )and see those millitary reforms max out the slider for you. Even in 5.2 the gain in monthly mp will be practically non-existant.
I don't think thats how the +1 shock modifier works (I might be wrong I'll ask Pewt about it) but from what I could remember it was the leaders that you hired. If you had full aristocracy then you will be guarenteed to get a general with atleast 1 shock, never less. I don't think it ever gave you a extra bonus in battles too. With that said I really like aristocracy, but I think plutocracy is just as viable if you aren't making a lot of cavalry.
 

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I play Spain differently than you suggest. First of all, there is no reason to pick serfdom. I usually go as far free subjects as I am comfortable with, without making stability too expensive. Secondly, naval (at least mildly) is a must due to tariff income. And finally I go at least mildly plutocratic for the trade benefits. Since most of your income will be from trade in your own colonial COTs, trade efficiency matters.