Slavic Union - best way to achieve it

[IanReSc]

The title says it all.

I am by no means an inexperienced player, but I never knew how to tackle this. I like the idea of forming the slavic union, but there seem to be a couple of obstacles in the way. The same can be said for forming the Russian Empire.

I assume the best starting position would either be Kiev or both duchies in Bohemia. Maybe even Novgorod. Then again Bohemia would be the at the western border of a soon to be huge empire. Also it is quite close to those catholic gospel singers. Kiev is quite close to the nomads which ruined a previous attempt for me. They became to strong for me to grow.

Then there is also gavelkind which I am stuck with until I can reform the faith.

How did other players do it? Am I missing something. I don't like changing faith or pretending to do so, should that be an idea. Never did it. Never will

 

[Dragatus]

Did you have a specific start date in mind? You could start out in Poland in one of the early dates, go Catholic, and use holy wars against the other Slavs while they're still Pagan. Slavic Union only requires Slavic culture, you don't also need to have Slavic religion. You'd have a fairly secure back too, with the Karlings to your west being Catholic too. The defensive bonus pagans get will be a problem though, so being Slavic is also a viable approach. Basically it's a trade off between how easy it is to start a war for territory and how easy it is to win that war. Maybe start pagan and switch to Catholic once you're bigger and if crusades get unlocked (access to holy orders).

Tribal is probably best, since they're stronger than feudals until the feudals develop. Extensively use the Hunting Party retinue (100 light inf + 50 light cav) as it's very strong. Your vassals will also use their entire levy when you call them to war. Succession is an issue, but as long as you stay tribal you can duel to get your titles back. Get regular gavelkind over the elective sort if you're Catholic and keep one kingdom tier title to make successions easier.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

I suggest starting as Great Moravia in 876.
But the easiest might be starting in 936 (Kievan Rus is still united) so you only have to conquer a disunited Poland (they're among the last Slavic pagans too, making holy wars quite easy); and then moving on to conquer Bohemia, which shouldn't be too hard at that point.

 

[IanReSc]

I usually start in 769 and rarely start as anything bigger than a Duke. Mostly I tend to start as small as possible. So the Premyslids or the other moravian Dynasty come to mind. Or Kiev. She usually has good stats and a genius courtier to marry and sire offspring with.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

I usually start in 769 and rarely start as anything bigger than a Duke. Mostly I tend to start as small as possible.

Ok, then. You can start in 769 as the Duke of Moravia, spread Christianity to your Slavic brothers and see how Eastern Europe would look if Great Moravia wouldn't fall to internal conflict and the Magyar invasion.
When you're done, we can even compare results, since I just began a campaign like that.

 

[jwalche]

If you have some nomad neighbors, it's best to control them early. For that, it would be best to convert to Christianity for now, so that you have access to holy wars.

Here are few things about your nomad neighbors;

1. Their offence is decent. But their defense is horrible. Their holdings are easily stormed with 1000, or even 500 tribal levy. And they only have a few holdings. One for Khagan, and one each for Khans. Most of them, except Khazaria, have only one vassal Khan. Get a couple of organizer commanders, even martial 9~10 ones are far better than nothing. Avoid battles and aim for their capitals. It's ok to let them siege your counties. You will win because you will storm and they will siege.

Most likely, if you have over 1000 levy, sending them as one army under an organization commander, detour to avoid nomad army, and storm their two capital holdings will easily and quickly give you a win.

2. Nomad realms can easily turn to be unstable. When you declare a holy war, do it for Khagan's demesne counties so that he will become weaker than his Khan. If you capture a Khagan, often it is better to execute him than forcing him to surrender.

Again, become a Christian. And as nice Christians do, declare holy wars to your nomad neighbors as early as you can. You grab a few counties. And they get weakened and/or fight some internal wars.

You can always go back to your Slavic religion. Especially when you are near from reforming it.

 

[jwalche]

As Dragatus mentioned, Hunting Party is very very strong. Its 67% Light Infantry gets 60% attack bonus to start. And you have very high chance of keep firing Harass tactic that makes your 33% Light Calvary 4x strong.

As a Slavic, if your cultural retinue is Hussar, then eventually you can get some of it and mix with your Hunting Parties in 1:2 ratio. That's 200 LI + 400 LC, an ideal mix of LI and LC for Harass Tactic. But since you can get Hussar after adopting feudalism but not Hunting Parties, I would focus on Hunting Parties first.

If you go that route, I would recommend to get a practice range in all of your realm counties, and not any other buildings that gives other type units, so that your levy can maintain 20% archers for a decent chance to get Feint tactics. Because your tribal levy will be trash without 20% archers.

 

[Larva]

Reform Slavic and get anything you want.
Start as Dobrava, marry Blackbird (as an option - stay unmarried and seduce him and couple of others courtiers to legitimize only 1 kid), go for War focus, become Queen in first generation, try to be careful about titles you conquer so you won't get land for another kingdom popup with gavelkind, beeline to Novgorod and Birlad (optionally Plock), reform aggressively (Unyielding, Animistic, (Daring or succession helper - Ancestor Veneration preferable), Temporal) and kill'em all.

If you are having troubles with hordes, you prolly don't use tribal retinues much - which you should. This is why you really what become King/Queen asap - tribal retinues are basically your "infamous" Tribal Army with the ability to loot. Actually, for looting you might want to got for Etelkoz (or how it is pronounced) coast

UPD: Just want to bring up my thoughts on retinue, since I just noticed conversation on this I prefer mix of veterans+trappers as East Slavic - you will have very little to none cavalry from levies, thus making Hunter Parties pollute your mostly archery tactics. I prefer to see constant shieldwall, making your heavies impenetrable in skirmish. Furthermore, veterans+trappers have bigger bonus to morale, which stack veeery nicely with that of the warrior lodge trait (Pillar of the Plains). Also Druzhina Training grounds ofc.
But as the West Slavic this should be a different story

 

[jwalche]

This is why you really what become King/Queen asap

It's egg or chicken issue. When you are a king, you are already not threatened by anyone. Becoming a king takes a while if you start as a weak duke.

 

[Larva]

It's egg or chicken issue. When you are a king, you are already not threatened by anyone. Becoming a king takes a while if you start as a weak duke.

I was not hypothesizing some weak duke. I was talking about Dobrava. Also, you can become a king in first gen as pagan duke anytime I bet 95 against 5. Heck, I've managed to grab a kingdom as Mahtar Mahtarid of Canarias! Free subjugation CB on almost everyone around is too strong in human's hands. You can also kill off some vassals early to get their lands WITHOUT recently conquered penalties, basically boosting your levy sizes to space. And don't forget about build legend with good steward - you ALWAYS use this in starters.

 

[DusanII]

I just finished this campaign and form Slavic union.

I started as Great Moravia in 876, formed the Wendish Empire and then it was quite easy to form Slavic Union in few generations.

d.

 

[Dragatus]

I used the tribal HI retinue in a game in which I was one of the Ugro-Finnic cultures because they'd synergize better with my cultural troops, but they just weren't as vicious as Hunting Party. The reason why Hunting Party is strong is because it gives you a downright brutal skirmish phase, which is the weak spot of most feudal armies and the LC will also do well against nomads using Horse Archers (Harass tactic counters both Swarm and Harass Swam). With a good lodge commander I found my retinue would often win before the melee phase even began. In an extreme case I even got attacked by two Catholic holy orders (lots of heavy infantry and heavy cavalry), and managed to crush them despite being significantly outnumbered and having nominally "trash" troops. Of course a lot of the credit also goes to my commander, but the fundamental reason I could do that was because I had such a strong skirmish phase and their heavy troops wouldn't really do much before the battle entered melee phase. And the LI and LC both do well in pursuit phase too.

I'd now use Hunting Party as my tribal retinue of choice regardless of my culture, with the one possible exception being if I'm Germanic pagan.

 

[IanReSc]

I apreciate all the input. Also the things said about the retinues. I rarely play tribal, but I really wanna give it a go.
I think I like going with the Dobrova approach. I like staying slavic, she starts out in a good position, so it kind of makes sense. Longterm Kiev might even be the capital in the later stages, so why not start there?

EDIT: I kind of lucked out so far. Dobrova started as a brilliant strategist AND the organizer trait. That should come in handy

 

[Larva]

I apreciate all the input. Also the things said about the retinues. I rarely play tribal, but I really wanna give it a go.
I think I like going with the Dobrova approach. I like staying slavic, she starts out in a good position, so it kind of makes sense. Longterm Kiev might even be the capital in the later stages, so why not start there?

What do you mean - might? It's the only true capital of East Slavic people! Also 7 slot, one of the few in the world
P.S.: You will appreciate some PDX fan, who paid nice bucks to put his handmade character in her court

 

[IanReSc]

Well, I managed to become Queen at age 36, but I am constantly being raided by 2,500 doomstacks of nomads. They have already imprisoned some of my family. I can't defeat them. Either I switch capital sites, or expand to other parts and ignore them, I can't think of a way out. I could swear fealty... Attacking them and rushing their capital won't do me any good, since I will face more powerful nomads to the east.

 

[BuddyLove]

Well, I managed to become Queen at age 36, but I am constantly being raided by 2,500 doomstacks of nomads. They have already imprisoned some of my family. I can't defeat them. Either I switch capital sites, or expand to other parts and ignore them, I can't think of a way out. I could swear fealty... Attacking them and rushing their capital won't do me any good, since I will face more powerful nomads to the east.

I formed Slavic Union off the Dobrova Kiev start date; the Nomads are a real pain (just like they were for Aladdin early on).

Best way I found was to marry with them for non-aggression pacts- can get some bloodlines that was as well.

 

[Larva]

2500 is not so big, you should probably be able to defend. Also good strat is to get NAPs with bordering khans - khagan might not accept marriage proposal, but khans are more eager. They cannot raid you while in NAP. Also try to murder strong khagan so his realm will be susceptible to split - antagonize and duel, plot to kill.
Or you can get some powerful ally and try to kick khagan yourself.

 

[IanReSc]

I was lucky that the nomads chose another target and left me in peace for a while. I managed to fight them off in the end. It was kind of a stalemate.

However, by the time Dobrova was in her early 60s, all of her 9 children had passed away. Guess what happened next. Death wanted to play chess... I invited him in, I played black, I had the strategist trait and I offered him the life of some random friend.

Now I am stuck with a 2 year old. Sometimes I hate this game.

 

[BuddyLove]

The other 769 start that's worth considering is the two brothers in chernigov- they start as each other's heirs, so if you can convince Dobrova to a normal wedding, kill your brother, then use your subjugation it can be a very quick consolidation.

 

[jwalche]

The other 769 start that's worth considering is the two brothers in chernigov- they start as each other's heirs, so if you can convince Dobrova to a normal wedding, kill your brother, then use your subjugation it can be a very quick consolidation.

Alternatively, you can use your subjugation, kill your lover, suicide from depression, inherited by your brother, and use another subjugation.