Slavic "Thing" Or How Pagans Should Have Moar Differences

[unmerged(606777)]

In the last DD some people have expressed their discontent with the lack of depth and special abilities for pagans other than the Norse. This indeed is something that needs to be addressed. I think it would be awesome if the Slavs, Balts and Finns would get considerable distinctive features.

Here's something for Slavs.

This is Proto-Slavs in 5 century BC (the green blob in Southern Poland/Western Ukraine).

Expansion in the middle of the first millenium AD

Modern state of things

During the couple of millennia if its existance the Slavs assimilated much of the Scythian, Sarmatian, Tharcian, Illyrian, Baltic, Finno-Ugric and East-Germanic world.

What I meant by this is that Slav stronk perhaps it would fitting if Slavic "thing" was, say, 40% faster assimilation of other cultures? Norse can raid rivers and sacrifice, Slavs have the Jarilo feast and the ability to assimilate other cultures faster than others.


Not sure about Balts and Finns, though. Perhaps Balts can have a bigger defensive bonus, since they managed to defend for so long and retain their culture. And Finns were know as superb hunters and had, for instance, extensive fur trade with the Slavs, so perhaps some bonuses in trade and money-making should be their thing.

 

[Nyrael]

Good idea. If possible, it could be added that they are also faster to get assimilated (representing the Hungarian and Romanian issue).
However, both should only be present in early centuries.

 

[grumphie]

pagans already autoconvert culture upon conquest. so thats the most silly bonus ever, as they cant even use it.

i personally dont doubt the pagans will be diffrent. sure, the norse get additional love, but as it stands i'd say the other pagans are at the very least as unique as orthodoxy.

 

[unmerged(606777)]

pagans already autoconvert culture upon conquest

wat

Who said that? And what sense does it make?

 

[Nyrael]

I certainly doubt it else we'd get Mongol Russia.

 

[Kljunas]

wat

Who said that? And what sense does it make?

I guess pagan invasions were followed by important migrations. Like the Magyar didn't just conquer what became Hungary, they settled there.

And if I remember correctly, not all provinces are converted, only a couple.

 

[Nyrael]

I guess pagan invasions were followed by important migrations. Like the Magyar didn't just conquer what became Hungary, they settled there.

Magyar move from their old location to today's Hungary by event IIRC.
(speaking about Magyar, I really wish that instead of being able to target only Moravia that they had an ability to steal ANY de-jure Kingdom, replacing it with Hungary)

I don't mind Norse settling with invasion only as a character can start an invasion (it is targeted at Duchies rather than Kingdoms I hope?) once in a lifetime and it did happen historically.

 

[jonnydesperado]

It seems a lot to ask that Pagans not only become playable, but that each of the different faiths get worked out to such an extent. While of course I'd support the bid - such details that give different characters, cultures and religions a distinctive feel are always good - I doubt that they will implement it at this time. But maybe some mods or Future plans can involve more fleshed-out versions of religions and regions that are in need of some more love.

 

[Laur]

Magyar move from their old location to today's Hungary by event IIRC.
(speaking about Magyar, I really wish that instead of being able to target only Moravia that they had an ability to steal ANY de-jure Kingdom, replacing it with Hungary)

Yes, I'd like to see them capable to even steal East Francia if they manage to defeat the Emperor at the battle of Lechfeld / Augsburg. After all, the Magyars were the dominating military force in Europe at that time, and only the discipline of the Swabian contingents saved the day for the imperial troops. Presumably, in this case, the Pope will crown the King of West Francia, Italy or Lotharingia as the new HRE and start a crusade, though I am not sure how much of a "translatio imperii" system will be implemented for the HRE.

 

[duhsveti]

pagans already autoconvert culture upon conquest. so thats the most silly bonus ever, as they cant even use it.

Waitwaitwaitwait, source? I didn't read that anywhere.

 

[WeissRaben]

Waitwaitwaitwait, source? I didn't read that anywhere.

It was said that the Magyars, if they manage to form Hungary, convert all the Hungarian provinces to...well, Hungarian, while all the others change to Pecheneg. It is an event, though, and it could probably be Hungarian only.

EDIT: Also, am I the only one thinking that assimilation should be beaten with a big nerf stick for provinces and greatly empowered for rulers? In 1453 the cultural map should be more or less the same, excluding exceptional cases that should mostly follow forced conversions (Sicily, Andalusia, Prussia) - the rulers should be the ones coping with cultural differences or bending the knee and convert.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Thread cleared of Off Topic posts.

 

[Nyrael]

EDIT: Also, am I the only one thinking that assimilation should be beaten with a big nerf stick for provinces and greatly empowered for rulers? In 1453 the cultural map should be more or less the same, excluding exceptional cases that should mostly follow forced conversions (Sicily, Andalusia, Prussia) - the rulers should be the ones coping with cultural differences or bending the knee and convert.

As much more sense as it makes, it is a great pleasure to see your Empire growing both politically and culturally ;P
With that said, AI does seem to follow more historical paths, with nobles converting to the local culture. The Player can also do it via events as long as he holds no provinces of his own culture.

 

[Artefactum]

I don't know if you're fully aware of it, but theory of Slavs being autochthonical is very VERY debatable and is not something historians commonly agree upon. Actualy I heard one professor at University of Warsaw claiming otherwise ( and he seemed quite sure of it ).

 

[duhsveti]

nobles converting to the local culture.

Well in almost all of my games it takes about 100/150 years for the Byzantine empire (if it survives) to spread the Greek culture all the way to Croatia, and even if a province does not have Greek culture, it will probably have a Greek leader. So in my opinion the culture expansion should be nerfed a bit. I mean i keep seeing Greek kings of Serbia, Bulgaria, etc.

 

[unmerged(606777)]

I don't know if you're fully aware of it, but theory of Slavs being autochthonical is very VERY debatable and is not something historians commonly agree upon. Actualy I heard one professor at University of Warsaw claiming otherwise ( and he seemed quite sure of it ).

Either way, peaceful assimilation of other cultures did take place, which can be rendered by the said bonuses.

 

[Artefactum]

Either way, peaceful assimilation of other cultures did take place, which can be rendered by the said bonuses.

But if we discount the said theory and assume that Slavs arrived in Europe during Migration Period then it would make Ugrofinns the only people that were assimilated by Slavs. And I don't see it to be in any way faster than in any other case.
In short, there is no need for extra assimilation bonuses for Slavs.

 

[unmerged(606777)]

But if we discount the said theory and assume that Slavs arrived in Europe during Migration Period then it would make Ugrofinns the only people that were assimilated by Slavs. And I don't see it to be in any way faster than in any other case.
In short, there is no need for extra assimilation bonuses for Slavs.

Finno-Ugrians, part of Balts, Thracians, Illyrians, remnants of the East Germans. This migration theory is marginal, by no means the mainstream one. What about the Proto-Slavic archaic toponymy in Pripyat' and lower Vistula? Archeology? Population genetics indicating R1a and R1b being closely related? Linguistics, showing Balto-Slavic continuity and close relation to Latin, Celtic and Germanic languages?

In short, there's totally a need for assimilation bonus.

 

[WeissRaben]

Finno-Ugrians, part of Balts, Thracians, Illyrians, remnants of the East Germans. This migration theory is marginal, by no means the mainstream one. What about the Proto-Slavic archaic toponymy in Pripyat' and lower Vistula? Archeology? Population genetics indicating R1a and R1b being closely related? Linguistics, showing Balto-Slavic continuity and close relation to Latin, Celtic and Germanic languages?

In short, there's totally a need for assimilation bonus.

Not really. They converted those places by MIGRATING there - a lord conquering a province is not moving 10.000 settlers in the main city. The Slavs were largely settled, by 867, if still tribal: Goths had the same impact, as did the Magyars and as did the Saxons. It was a migration effect, not some special ability on the Slavs' part.

 

[unmerged(606777)]

Not really. They converted those places by MIGRATING there - a lord conquering a province is not moving 10.000 settlers in the main city. The Slavs were largely settled, by 867, if still tribal: Goths had the same impact, as did the Magyars and as did the Saxons. It was a migration effect, not some special ability on the Slavs' part.

Okay, so they migrated there, but what about the locals? What happened to them? Did they migrate into completely depopulated areas? Where have Illyrians and Thracians gone? Thracians, as evidenced by Herodotus, were the most populous ethnos of the Antique world. Did they just dissapear? And remnants of Finno-Ugrians still exist to this day in Russia.

A somewhat chaotic wiki entry on the issue.

"...After their subsequent spread, they began assimilating non-Slavic peoples. For example, in the Balkans, there were Paleo-Balkan peoples, such as Illyrians, Greeks and romanized or hellenized Thracians. Over time, due to the larger number of Slavs, most descendants of the indigenous populations of the Balkans were Slavicized. The Thracians and Illyrians vanished from the population during this period - although the modern Albanian nation claims to be the descendent of the Illyrian race. Exceptions are Greece, where the smaller number Slavs scattered there came to be Hellenized and Romania where Slavic people settled en route for present-day Greece, Republic of Macedonia, Bulgaria and East Thrace whereby the Slavic population had come to assimilate. Bulgars were also assimilated by local Slavs but their ruling status and subsequent land cast the nominal legacy of Bulgarian country and people onto all future generations. The Romance speakers within the fortified Dalmatian cities managed to retain their culture and language for a long time, as Dalmatian Romance was spoken until the high Middle Ages. However, they too were eventually assimilated into the body of Slavs. In contrast, the Romano-Dacians in Wallachia managed to maintain their Latin-based language, despite much Slavic influence. After centuries of peaceful co-existence, the groups fused to form the Romanians.

In the western Balkans, south Slavs and Germanic Gepids intermarried with Avar invaders, eventually producing a Slavicised population. In central Europe, the Slavs intermixed with Germanic and Celtic, while the eastern Slavs encountered Uralic and Scandinavian peoples. Scandinavians (Varangians) and Finnic peoples were involved in the early formation of the Rus state but were completely Slavicised after a century. Some Finno-Ugric tribes in the north were also absorbed into the expanding Rus population. In the Middle Ages, groups of Saxon ore miners settled in medieval Bosnia, Serbia and Bulgaria where they were Slavicised. Polabian Slavs (Wends) settled in parts of England (Danelaw), apparently as Danish allies. Polabian-Pomeranian Slavs are also known to have even settled on Norse age Iceland..."