Slavery's bad, mmkay?

[-Marauder-]

My hot take is espionage needs to cost specialist jobs to be good so the damage you're theoretically doing is coming at a cost. Sure, you can cause damage without a war, but your military suffers through either technology or alloy loss so if someone figures out you did it your ability to defend against direct conflict is reduced.

It would need counter play. Stuff without counter play is fundamentally frustrating and unfun. No idea if you remember early Synth uprising. Where they would constantly scuttle star bases and the likes. It was infuriating and unfun to the extreme. This is that, but being done by players and worse. You'd also have to give the other side the same tools, i.e abduct pops, cause low stability, and so on.

Btw as for your other idea. How good or bad slavery needs to be depends on the risks. If it's just "different" from non slaver play style but balanced otherwise, it would need to have about the same output and beneficial civics. If it has these massive risks associate with it, and would cost extra jobs and other headaches. It would need to be genuinely more productive/stronger in output and not just base resources which are easy to get after a short time.

The whole "working two jobs" for example sounds good in theory. But you absolutely want maximum efficiency for specialist jobs. And jobs in general long term. So getting a 25% fine on them would kinda hurt you mid and long term. *Shrug*

 

[Thiend]

It would need counter play. Stuff without counter play is fundamentally frustrating and unfun. No idea if you remember early Synth uprising. Where they would constantly scuttle star bases and the likes. It was infuriating and unfun to the extreme. This is that, but being done by players and worse. You'd also have to give the other side the same tools, i.e abduct pops, cause low stability, and so on.

Btw as for your other idea. How good or bad slavery needs to be depends on the risks. If it's just "different" from non slaver play style but balanced otherwise, it would need to have about the same output and beneficial civics. If it has these massive risks associate with it, and would cost extra jobs and other headaches. It would need to be genuinely more productive/stronger in output and not just base resources which are easy to get after a short time.

The whole "working two jobs" for example sounds good in theory. But you absolutely want maximum efficiency for specialist jobs. And jobs in general long term. So getting a 25% fine on them would kinda hurt you mid and long term. *Shrug*

The counterplay would be your weakened military from fewer specialists either upgrading or replacing ships so if your schemes get tied back to you a comparable empire will crush you. Not sure it's good, I did say that was a hot take.

As for the jobs - it becomes worse if jobs are at a premium, it becomes better if they aren't. I don't care that each job is 25% less efficient if I'm filling twice as many until they're full, because when full they aren't filling twice as many jobs. It promotes wide play to get more open jobs because a slave working two jobs is more than a free pop filling one, it creates scenarios where you don't want it because if I can fill those jobs 1:1 with free pops that is better - it all depends on how much space and how many pops you have. The advantage is pop efficiency, the disadvantage is job efficiency. Currently the advantages and disadvantages are all pop efficiency so it balances positive or negative and is either required or awful.

 

[HFY]

Civ4 had a nice built-in passive counterplay:

You built up Espionage points. If you didn't target your Espionage, you allocated your points evenly to every other empire you'd met, accumulating more intel on each one over time.

The other empires accumulated Espionage points on you (and each other).

If you had more than them, your missions had a higher rate of success -- but your missions cost points. So eventually they would have more than you, even if they did nothing.

If you just sit there and accumulate points, you have a decent defense. An opponent can generally get away with a few missions, but they can't ruin your life.

But if you engage in the system and over-spend, or target your Espionage points on someone specific while letting everyone else get a point advantage over you, then you can get screwed.

So basically, you're encouraged to dip in until you know what is worth doing, and if you over-indulge then you make yourself vulnerable.

I enjoyed a very small number of Espionage-focused games, and a large number of games where Espionage was a small part or non-factor.


Also, something Civ 4 did which Stellaris could copy, is making Espionage a point system where points came from jobs.
- Default might be that the Ruler leader generates 4 espionage points per level
- Society research leader might generate another 2 points per level
- Spy specialist jobs might generate 6 points each (and some Society research)
- Telepath specialist jobs might generate 4 points each (and not reduce crime so much)

Civics might expand this:
- Cutthroat Politics: Politicians generate 2 espionage points
- Police State: Enforcers generate 1 espionage point
- Criminal Heritage: crime jobs on foreign planets with Branch Office generate 1 point for you

Other sources:
- Embassy might generate 1 point for each side (against the other)
- Emissary leaders assigned to improve or harm relations might generate 5 points (against the target)
- Spymaster emissary leader might generate 25 points (also against the target)
- Deep Space Black Site - Enforcers in this system generate +0.5 espionage point
- Off-World Trading Company - Merchants in this system generate 2 espionage points
- Strategic Coordination Center - Soldiers in this system generate 3 espionage points
- Listening Post - Gain 1 espionage point for each foreign system covered by its range

 

[Strangedane]

cops prevent exactly 0 crimes. their job only starts after the act, not before.

Maybe in some hellscape society.

Preventative measures is part of every law-enforcement in civiliced society.

 

[LeoBack]

Slaver Guilds is strong on anything with 2 starting species or anything specialist heavy, so Void Dwellers, Mechanist, Necrophage, Syncretic Evolution.
But of course it's strongest on Necrophage, you can rush Extended Shifts for something like 100% energy credit output on your slaves.

Authoritarian is stronger than Egalitarian because you get Information Quarantine edict that give you 3% to everything (great cheap edict to run), Stratified Economy Living Standards which is the best living Standard in the game and you can select Dictatorial Authority for the −10% Empire Size Effect

 

[XCodes]

Slaver Guilds is strong on anything with 2 starting species or anything specialist heavy, so Void Dwellers, Mechanist, Necrophage, Syncretic Evolution.
But of course it's strongest on Necrophage, you can rush Extended Shifts for something like 100% energy credit output on your slaves.

Authoritarian is stronger than Egalitarian because you get Information Quarantine edict that give you 3% to everything (great cheap edict to run), Stratified Economy Living Standards which is the best living Standard in the game and you can select Dictatorial Authority for the −10% Empire Size Effect

100 Stability + Energy from Jobs techs + Capacity Subsidies = 140% output
Chattel Slavery + Slaver Guilds + Extended Shifts = 50% output

Granted, you'll never have 100 stability, but you'll also get other minor bonuses like governor skill, so adding slavery to what is basically the default output is about as impactful as a +1 base production bonus. The problem is that most of that is the Domination tradition, and is also pretty much the best of 3 noteworthy things the Domination tradition does in the first place.

Slavery is good for two things: Indentured Servitude reducing your CG upkeep from pops and Domestic Servitude giving you building-free Amenities.

 

[LeoBack]

100 Stability + Energy from Jobs techs + Capacity Subsidies = 140% output
Chattel Slavery + Slaver Guilds + Extended Shifts = 50% output

Granted, you'll never have 100 stability, but you'll also get other minor bonuses like governor skill, so adding slavery to what is basically the default output is about as impactful as a +1 base production bonus. The problem is that most of that is the Domination tradition, and is also pretty much the best of 3 noteworthy things the Domination tradition does in the first place.

Slavery is good for two things: Indentured Servitude reducing your CG upkeep from pops and Domestic Servitude giving you building-free Amenities.

So you comparing something you get for 3 traditions and civic against something that cost hundreds of tech. By the same logic I can say technicians are useless because you can just build dyson sphere.
Stellaris is all about snowballing 50% now is better then 140% in 30 years

 

[Mipedian Associate]

A perfectly normal discussion about the pros and cons of intergalactic slavery.

Propaganda Wars.

Victory by DISRUPTION

Future DLC when

 

[John MacWhat]

My only gripe with slavery right now is that thrall worlds take too long to research and aren't worth setting up, but the same can be said about penal colonies and resort worlds

 

[XCodes]

So you comparing something you get for 3 traditions and civic against something that cost hundreds of tech. By the same logic I can say technicians are useless because you can just build dyson sphere.
Stellaris is all about snowballing 50% now is better then 140% in 30 years

Of the techs I've mentioned, like one costs more than 6k research -- the last productivity upgrade. Also, I have better things to spend my first 3 tradition picks on like Discovery, Prosperity, Supremacy, Mercantile, or even Expansion. Even Harmony right now just does everything Domination does but better.

 

[HFY]

My only gripe with slavery right now is that thrall worlds take too long to research and aren't worth setting up, but the same can be said about penal colonies and resort worlds

Resort World is always worth doing (once) but it's not like you have much set-up to do for it.

Plop down a few Luxury Housing and whatever else gets you to a decent breeder colony size. Its main benefit is from the empire modifier, not the planet itself.

 

[Nephandus]

@HFY @Strangedane

I would like to suggest a civilized discussion style or no discussion at all, if a certain level of decorum cannot be maintained.
What has been displayed here certainly falls under the latter category and has been deemed worthy for a test run of the Worldcracker Colossous of moderated deletion.

 

[HFY]

What is crime? People selling human crime in the 1800's for instance didn't think they were breaking the law. Crime and ethics can be vastly different.

That would be an interesting angle to explore -- crime in a Phile empire might include discrimination, while in a Phobe empire it might be a crime to NOT discriminate against xenos.

But that would require a bunch of Internal Politics mechanics -- which I'd love to see -- but which aren't in the game yet.

Right now crime seems to be defined as:

Crime and Deviancy (for Gestalt Consciousness empires) are measures of the overall level of non-compliance in the population of a world.

 

[-Marauder-]

My only gripe with slavery right now is that thrall worlds take too long to research and aren't worth setting up, but the same can be said about penal colonies and resort worlds

Resort Worlds can be actually decent. The other two, not so much.

On topic. This entire thing convinced me that we need a new Espionage Option/Diplomat job/Edict. Where a slaver Empire can pay upkeep of some kind, and in turn steals pops over time from a non slaver Empire. Basically the opposite of what some people want for escaping slaves. "Fund free slavers", "hire locals to traffic people", etc.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Ok, I'll bite.
How does schools, hospitals and houses prevent the galactic slavers from landing on your planet and abducting your pops?

We're talking about non-governmental forces from outside your society committing crimes.
How are you going to educate your way out of landing parties?

To do it at pop scale covertly (landing parties would not work covertly at pop scale, that's how you abduct individuals like assets or leaders) it would need an established criminal underworld to hide within.

 

[LeoBack]

Of the techs I've mentioned, like one costs more than 6k research -- the last productivity upgrade. Also, I have better things to spend my first 3 tradition picks on like Discovery, Prosperity, Supremacy, Mercantile, or even Expansion. Even Harmony right now just does everything Domination does but better.

One tech is tier 2 the other is tier 3 and it's better to use physics research to get better guns and rush your neighbour
Domination is good for slavers with extended shift you get 25% more worker production (if all your workers are slaves) and worker production is king in early game as it frees pops to do other stuff and the limiting factor of early game is pops.

With extended shift you get free worker for every 4 workers with Prosperity you get free specialists every 10 specialists with Harmony you get 1 pop every 33 pops (5 stability) with Discovery you get 1 scientist every 10 scientist

 

[Nithralder]

The problem with slavery is that Robots basically do the same thing but better with less hassle involved. You just create a building and Robotic Slaves are pumped out that can be put on any planet without having to deal with happiness.

Slavery in itself should be buffed but indirectly.

I would argue that Raiding should be allowed for everyone as long as Slavery Policy is allowed within your empire.
(Could be limited by Ethics such as Xenophobe, Militarist etc)
So for example a "Pacifist Slaver" Could allow for all slaves to be Indentured Servants, While Xenophobe would allow for only Chattel Slavery, while Militarist would allow for Battle Thralls etc



This would allow for two things.


1. Slavery could be balanced by having the policy enabled give significant negative opinion modifiers with other empires and work differently based on Ethics.



2. This would allow Barbaric Despoilers and Nihilistic Acquisition and others to instead buff the Raiding Mechanic (More Pops stolen, faster raiding, stolen pop happiness, allow stolen pops to become any slave type (chattel slavery, indentured servitude, etc)

 

[HFY]

I would argue that Raiding should be allowed for everyone as long as Slavery Policy is allowed within your empire.

I think it is already, assuming you mean anyone can take and use Nihilistic Acquisition.

I've run Auth empires which have no slaves and I've abducted aliens (including primitives) into instant Full Citizens. Slavery was enabled, but no species was set to be enslaved. (But they could be! But they weren't.)

It's a technique I call "Liber-Raiding" since they aren't actually enslaved. In fact, I capture Charismatic aliens and force them into the ruling class.

 

[XCodes]

One tech is tier 2 the other is tier 3 and it's better to use physics research to get better guns and rush your neighbour

What techs are you going to research to unlock higher tiers for more lasers?? Improved reactor boosters? Station research bonuses? Or Energy production? That's what I thought.

Domination is good for slavers with extended shift you get 25% more worker production (if all your workers are slaves) and worker production is king in early game as it frees pops to do other stuff and the limiting factor of early game is pops.

It's actually 30% and it's still not worthwhile because it's additive with bonuses like capital production, stability, governor skill, chattel slavery, and slaver guilds. Even very early in the game Domination is only a net 20% bonus.

With extended shift you get free worker for every 4 workers with Prosperity you get free specialists every 10 specialists with Harmony you get 1 pop every 33 pops (5 stability) with Discovery you get 1 scientist every 10 scientist

You absolutely do not. That is straight-up not how the math works.

 

[Devanor]

I've run Auth empires which have no slaves and I've abducted aliens (including primitives) into instant Full Citizens. Slavery was enabled, but no species was set to be enslaved. (But they could be! But they weren't.)

It's a technique I call "Liber-Raiding" since they aren't actually enslaved. In fact, I capture Charismatic aliens and force them into the ruling class.

This sounds like Blorg shenanigans

"You *will* be my friend! I will kidnap you if I have to!"