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SeraphAscending

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Finally we are talking about the same thing. Still, i think the better approach for this is to not separate slavery, but separate the living standards for xenophobes and authoritarian. I would even agree that xenophobes have some low level living standard exclusively (aka the pens), while autoritarian maybe have a special living standard above what a xenophobe can offer. Maybe something like luxurious living standards. Would also play well with indetures assets/servants roleplay. Give them a nice appartment, but charge them a lot so they cant escape. So authoritarian slaves would get luxurious living standards, decent living standards and basic living standards, while xenophobes would get decent living standards, basic living standards and pen living standard (or just called "The barn"). I hope my idea is clear.

Xenophobes on the other hand send the miner and farmers in the pens, together with the delicious livestock, but the battle thralls are decent living conditions as well as the entertainers.

That would give way more roleplay options as compared to your suggestion which would take options away and limit slave types to certain ethics.
this is probably the best solution to this problem.

It makes sense to disable xenophobes from treating xeno-slaves well, but it also makes sense for them to potentially treat them even worse than just an authoritarian enslaver.
 

Archael90

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But there is still a problem with xenophile faction demand, and xenophile ethic limitations. you cant enslave xenos while being xenophile. Which is weird since to being even able to enslave anyone you have to be authoritarian and/or xenophobe, and since you cant be xenophobe and xenophile at the same time, this xenophile demand is anti-authoritarian. This idea helps with that, because authoritarian will be able to make servants even when being xenophiles.
 

SeraphAscending

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But there is still a problem with xenophile faction demand, and xenophile ethic limitations. you cant enslave xenos while being xenophile. Which is weird since to being even able to enslave anyone you have to be authoritarian and/or xenophobe, and since you cant be xenophobe and xenophile at the same time, this xenophile demand is anti-authoritarian. This idea helps with that, because authoritarian will be able to make servants even when being xenophiles.
I think your solution fixes that while breaking too many other things.
The core problem is the locking of enslavement status to species and/or slaver guilds civic.

If there was a solution for that then your "let's make some types of slavery not slavery" approach wouldn't be needed at all, because while you have a point regarding gameplay, it's quite a fundamental issue to not treat forced/coerced servitude as a type of slavery, but do deliberately distinguish it from that.

This would simply not be a solution paradox would want to implement, because of ethical reasons.
And yes, you can play slave mongers and genocidal psychos, but the game labels stuff appropriately and slavery is stated to be slavery, just as genocide is stated to be genocide. Distinguishing between multiple types of slavery and forced servitude as seperate categories is like calling some instances of armed robbery "money transfer". There is no way they'd decide to change it to that from what they have now.
It's a really bad idea and they'd probably not want to risk the potential bad PR. (Or at least backlash in the forums.)

In my eyes your proposal fixes a minor issue by creating several new ones.
It's a quick-and-dirty solution to get that one gameplay improvement you want, but it ultimately doesn't improve the game or its immersion.

I do agree that xenophiles should be able to go authoritarian and enslave people, but i don't think that locking all non-xenophobe slavery behind the "slaver guilds" civic is a good decision.
I would like to see that changed, too.
 
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Archael90

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I think your solution fixes that while breaking too many other things.
The core problem is the locking of enslavement status to species and/or slaver guilds civic.

If there was a solution for that then your "let's make some types of slavery not slavery" approach wouldn't be needed at all, because while you have a point regarding gameplay, it's quite a fundamental issue to not treat forced/coerced servitude as a type of slavery, but do deliberately distinguish it from that.

This would simply not be a solution paradox would want to implement, because of ethical reasons.
And yes, you can play slave mongers and genocidal psychos, but the game labels stuff appropriately and slavery is stated to be slavery, just as genocide is stated to be genocide. Distinguishing between multiple types of slavery and forced servitude as seperate categories is like calling some instances of armed robbery "money transfer". There is no way they'd decide to change it to that from what they have now.
It's a really bad idea and they'd probably not want to risk the potential bad PR. (Or at least backlash in the forums.)

In my eyes your proposal fixes a minor issue by creating several new ones.
It's a quick-and-dirty solution to get that one gameplay improvement you want, but it ultimately doesn't improve the game or its immersion.

I do agree that xenophiles should be able to go authoritarian and enslave people, but i don't think that locking all non-xenophobe slavery behind the "slaver guilds" civic is a good decision.
I would like to see that changed, too.
While i disagree with most of what you have said, i can agree that some things should be changed. I dont think this solution breakes anything in game except locking some types of slavery from xenophobes, types of slavery that they should not be able to use without authoritarian ethic from the beggining, xenophobes should never want to stick with xenos even as servants. But they should be able to make servants from their own people yet this should need authoritarian ethic. This is my reasoning.
But better change would be to add option for authoritarian to enslave all pops based on:
1. Stratum.
2. Planet.
3. Job.
4. Species.
5. Faction.
6. specific traits.
And any mix of those, for example: all species X on planet Y, but only miners of species X on every other planet, except planet Z where all X pops are free.
 
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ASGeek2012

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xenophobes should never want to stick with xenos even as servants.
I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense.

You seem to be holding a very narrow interpretation of xenophobia. Yes, it can mean that they don't even want to even be in the same room with xenos. But it could also mean that they simply find xenos to be inferior, yet they still have their usefulness as servants. The xenophobia is still fully on display here because the xeno is relegated to serving their betters and to have no hope for any advancement. Yes, it's a degree less xenophobic than outright enslaving them, but that's what I like about it. I'm allowed to have a more nuanced definition of the ethic if I want.

This is what I meant earlier about taking options away from the player, which is what your narrow definition of xenophobia does.
 
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I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense.

You seem to be holding a very narrow interpretation of xenophobia. Yes, it can mean that they don't even want to even be in the same room with xenos. But it could also mean that they simply find xenos to be inferior, yet they still have their usefulness as servants. The xenophobia is still fully on display here because the xeno is relegated to serving their betters and to have no hope for any advancement. Yes, it's a degree less xenophobic than outright enslaving them, but that's what I like about it. I'm allowed to have a more nuanced definition of the ethic if I want.

This is what I meant earlier about taking options away from the player, which is what your narrow definition of xenophobia does.

The game does seem to indicate that Xenophobes don't want Xenos around, even as slaves.

For example, the native Xenophobe faction ("Supremacist Faction") will be unhappy if you have any Immigraiton Treaty, even if you have set default species rights to enslave all immigrants. They are unhappy about allowing in more Xenos, even as slaves.

They also want to ensure that no Xeno species has Full Citizen rights, but that's not the limit of their dislike.

They don't want to be in any kind of Federation, not even a Hegemony where they are bossing around a bunch of Xenos.

It's not a subtle point. Xenophobes don't want Xenos around.


If you want Xeno slaves, you might be more Authoritarian than Xenophobe.
 
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Archael90

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I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense.

You seem to be holding a very narrow interpretation of xenophobia. Yes, it can mean that they don't even want to even be in the same room with xenos. But it could also mean that they simply find xenos to be inferior, yet they still have their usefulness as servants. The xenophobia is still fully on display here because the xeno is relegated to serving their betters and to have no hope for any advancement. Yes, it's a degree less xenophobic than outright enslaving them, but that's what I like about it. I'm allowed to have a more nuanced definition of the ethic if I want.

This is what I meant earlier about taking options away from the player, which is what your narrow definition of xenophobia does.
The sheer fact that game already allows xenophobes to enslave xenos is just a flaw. For me they should be even against eating xenos, but its my subjective view - if i hate something i dont want to even eat it - i hate bugs, i would never eat those and i almost threw up seeing prawns on pizza... but i can agree some have no problem with that.
Yet having ugly looking, ugly smelling, inferior in any way, xenos in my home, serving my food with their dirty hands or other hand like limbs... its just disgusting. This is xenophobe point of view... how domestic or indenture servitude can fit into this?
 
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Franton

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The game does seem to indicate that Xenophobes don't want Xenos around, even as slaves.

For example, the native Xenophobe faction ("Supremacist Faction") will be unhappy if you have any Immigraiton Treaty, even if you have set default species rights to enslave all immigrants. They are unhappy about allowing in more Xenos, even as slaves.

They also want to ensure that no Xeno species has Full Citizen rights, but that's not the limit of their dislike.
I totally agree. 'Phobia' literally means an irrational (or irrationally strong) fear or dislike of everything alien, specifically people of another species or race. While that probably means for most people not wanting to have 'aliens' around anywhere, the best place to put them - if they have to run around somewhere - is on a thrall world and/or deep in the mines. And making them work as slaves ensures they'll never come back to meet you.

IIMHO Xenophobia without slaves is only feasible if you make sure to 100% avoid alien pops within your empire: no migration or refugees, and no conquest. Anyone considering the conquest of a xeno world, must either not be xenophobe, or consider a plan B on how to treat those conquered Xenos, and the best option is slavery.

For that reason I think it makes sense that xenophobe empires can choose to allow slavery.
 
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Archael90

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The best option is purge, and this is main feature of xenophobes
I don't disagree, xenophobes should prefer to purge xenos.
Purging in itself though, brings me mental pictures of political purging and reeducation camps, which are clearly authoritarian purging and slavery.

My personal preference was if xenophobes could enslave, but fanatic phobes could only purge.
 
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Archael90

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My personal preference was if xenophobes could enslave, but fanatic phobes could only purge.
I agree, tho this slavery should be limmited to chattel slavery, livestock, and maybe battle thralls, tho i think those last ones require at least basic respect.
Xenophobes should not being able to creates servants from xenos since it require them to stick near them, giving them shelter in their homes (domestic servants) or share jobs (indenture servants), and no xenophobe should allow this.
 
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I don't disagree, xenophobes should prefer to purge xenos.
Purging in itself though, brings me mental pictures of political purging and reeducation camps, which are clearly authoritarian purging and slavery.

My personal preference was if xenophobes could enslave, but fanatic phobes could only purge.

There's overlap between Auth and Phobe, sure.

The "Fear Campaign" edict which is specific to Phobe is 100% the sort of tactic run by real-world Auth empires, against foreign empires (see any war propaganda) and against domestic political rivals (like the McCarthy anti-communist purges).

The things we associate with Xenophobe in Stellaris are endemic of Authoritarians IRL.

But if we want Phobe to be its own thing in the game, that's an overlap we have to live with.
 

Archael90

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Stop trying to decide for me how I RP xenophobia.
Why does other, like devs or forum members tell me how i should RP spiritualist empire, gestalt consciousness empire? Devs destroys my RP via mechanical limitations, forum members by bombardings my ideas of improving those ethics. And yet you are complaining for idea that fits definition of xenophobia in a way that other ethics actually are limited.

There's overlap between Auth and Phobe, sure.

The "Fear Campaign" edict which is specific to Phobe is 100% the sort of tactic run by real-world Auth empires, against foreign empires (see any war propaganda) and against domestic political rivals (like the McCarthy anti-communist purges).

The things we associate with Xenophobe in Stellaris are endemic of Authoritarians IRL.

But if we want Phobe to be its own thing in the game, that's an overlap we have to live with.
Yeah... sort of... but we could just stick to what xenophobic means for example, this way those two ethics would be distinct and yet playable.
btw. Fear campain is xenophobic thing, the fact that rl authoritarian countries use it, is because they are xenophobic to some degree, also irl civilizations are not 2-3 ethic... some of countries are pacifistic militarists, or materialistic spiritualists in terms of stellaris. And just because country A did a thing, does not means this thing is A-ish... we should stick to the definitions.
And in this case we dont need to even tweak ingame definition to match textbook definition:
Any alien influence must be ruthlessly quashed. Only by staying pure, and true to ourselves and the planet that gave us life can we guard against insidious Xeno plots. Even mastery over the Alien might not be enough to guarantee our own safety...
This one is tottaly against any xeno in their borders... they really should be purging everything on sight.
The stakes could not be higher as we reach into the vast uncharted expanses of the galaxy, for we are gambling with the very survival of our species! Never trust the alien; its false smile hides an unknowable mind...
This one is against giving xenos more than enough, and they tottaly fear to stick near them... should they really give indenture or domestic jobs for those they should never trust?
 
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The best option is purge, and this is main feature of xenophobes
Well, you can only purge slaves, so we're not disagreeing here. I'd even agree that purge is the most obvious setting for Xenophobes. But it shouldn't be the only option. You're equating racists with genocidals. While there is most certainly a notable corrolation, I t hink - hell, I surely hope! - that the majority of racists don't strife to wipe the other race from the face of Earth (or Wenkworth, or whatever)
 
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Well, you can only purge slaves, so we're not disagreeing here. I'd even agree that purge is the most obvious setting for Xenophobes. But it shouldn't be the only option. You're equating racists with genocidals. While there is most certainly a notable corrolation, I t hink - hell, I surely hope! - that the majority of racists don't strife to wipe the other race from the face of Earth (or Wenkworth, or whatever)
No, you can purge whoever you want, and purge does not means only "to kill", it means get rid of them, either by killing, or displacement.
 

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There's overlap between Auth and Phobe, sure.

Rather than Overlap, its more a case of Government form is a cake of corruption, and "Phobia of __ " is a cherry on top. As Democracies can be just as irrational - its just that we don't see it that often in our modern world.
 
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SeraphAscending

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@Archael90 As many people have stated, you use an extremely limited framework for what you classify as "xenophobia". Your definition would at best be suitable for fanatic xenophobes, but not even all of them. Xenophobia does not mean fanatic purifier. There is a reason why this is an additional civic.

Seeing everyone of a different species as inferior and forcing them to work, because you are "too kind" to rid the universe of this filth, but the least they could do is to contribute to public prosperity.

Your logic would 100% exclude almost any ethic combination of pacificist and xenophobe.
That is ridiculous.

Do you really want to argue that a society that enslaves every other species and treats them horrendously is not xenophobic on the grounds of not being violent enough?
You can't really argue that thinking every other species is inferior and not to be treated as equal is not xenophobia. So why wouldn't such a society feasible in your eyes?
 
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Archael90

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As many people have stated, you use an extremely limited framework for what you classify as "xenophobia". You're definition would at best be suitable for fanatic xenophobes, but not even all of them. Xenophobia does not mean fanatic purifier. There is a reason why this is an additional civic.
First, no, its not my definition, but ingame description.
Second, as i stated few posts ago - purge in stellaris does not means "to kill".
(btw. Not every hive mind empire is devouring swarm and yet they all cant stand free will pops in their borders... so what?)
Seeing everyone of a different species as inferior and forcing them to work, because you are "too kind" to rid the universe of this filth, but the least they could do is to contribute to public prosperity.
your statement is false since i never excluded regular xenophobes from slavery (i said it would fit xenophobe ethic, but i never proposed any change in this), what i was saying is that xenophobes should not stick near xenos, allow them to live in their houses nor share specialist jobs with them. Sending them to work in mines living in barracks is okay as xenophobes, so chattel slavery or livestock is okay for them. My suggestion is (and im really disapointed i have to repeat it, since it was stated very clearly) to remove servitude kind of slavery from xenophobe ethic, and make it authoritarian exclusive, for reason i already have stated.
 
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