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ROFL, or ROTFL means 'Rolling on the Floor Laughing'.
Here's a useful list of Internet acronyms:
http://www.solscape.com/chat/acronyms.html
/Doomie
Here's a useful list of Internet acronyms:
http://www.solscape.com/chat/acronyms.html
/Doomie
Of course you can edit the program and change slaves to Ivory or Pearls or Salt or whatever comodity you would like.
IMHO, I don't think changing Slaves to Ivory would be much of an improvement.
IMHO, I don't think changing Slaves to Ivory would be much of an improvement.
Yes, thanks Doomie. I was going to ask the same thing as Marcus. Bloody newfangled acronyms...!!!
Martin
Slavery is still around today. In the Sudan, animists and Christians in the southern part of the country are sold as slaves by northern Muslims. I am not sure if this is technically illegal or not. There are many reports of women being duped into virtual slavery as prostitutes when they thought they were immigrating to the US or Western Europe. Reports from many other Arab nations, including the more moderate nations, indicate that slavery continues there as well.
That Sudan example has caused some controversy in the UN and US. First, There is a debate going on if the buying back and freeing of these slaves (often done by Western missionaries) actually is a good thing or if it is actually encouraging the slave trade. Second, the African-American leaders have been strangely quiet on the subject even though they mention the the horrors of American slavery often. It seems rather ironic that men who condemned South African apartheid and want slavery reparations do not seem so outraged when it is Africans enslaving Africans. It somewhat undermines their theory of the evil of white people when their race does the same thing. IIRC A muslim leader by the name Farakhan actually visited the Sudan and was very friendly with them. He also believes he has been on the 'mothership' (whatever that means) orbiting Earth so maybe he is not a good example. ;-)
For all you Europeans, you must understand that slavery is a very touchy subject in the USA. Unlike your countries, our former slaves are now a sizeable part of the population (actually, we have many of your slaves as well). Even after slavery was abolished, racism and segregation remained to oppress these people for a good hundred years and remains to a lesser extent today. African-Americans are still economically disadvantaged compared to whites, though there is more than one reason for that. Slavery also resulted in the bloodiest war in US history: the American Civil War. We also have a nasty case of political correctness that is starting to get out of control which makes many people prefer PC lies to the truth. APKicks reflects that problem. APK, with all due respect, slavery is a terrible thing but pretending it didn't exist is just as terrible.
I am no supporter of slavery but, at one time, it was a better option than some of the alternatives. If the choice is razing the city and putting the population to the sword or enslaving them instead, slavery is the much more humane option. Servitude beats slavery. Of course, peace beats war on the morality scale but that was not always an option.
As for EU, slavery was part of the times. To ignore it does not seem appropriate. But if there is an option to change slaves to some other trade good, I do not see what would be wrong with that. But it would be good if there was a counterbalance to slavery. Revolts would be a good idea.
That Sudan example has caused some controversy in the UN and US. First, There is a debate going on if the buying back and freeing of these slaves (often done by Western missionaries) actually is a good thing or if it is actually encouraging the slave trade. Second, the African-American leaders have been strangely quiet on the subject even though they mention the the horrors of American slavery often. It seems rather ironic that men who condemned South African apartheid and want slavery reparations do not seem so outraged when it is Africans enslaving Africans. It somewhat undermines their theory of the evil of white people when their race does the same thing. IIRC A muslim leader by the name Farakhan actually visited the Sudan and was very friendly with them. He also believes he has been on the 'mothership' (whatever that means) orbiting Earth so maybe he is not a good example. ;-)
For all you Europeans, you must understand that slavery is a very touchy subject in the USA. Unlike your countries, our former slaves are now a sizeable part of the population (actually, we have many of your slaves as well). Even after slavery was abolished, racism and segregation remained to oppress these people for a good hundred years and remains to a lesser extent today. African-Americans are still economically disadvantaged compared to whites, though there is more than one reason for that. Slavery also resulted in the bloodiest war in US history: the American Civil War. We also have a nasty case of political correctness that is starting to get out of control which makes many people prefer PC lies to the truth. APKicks reflects that problem. APK, with all due respect, slavery is a terrible thing but pretending it didn't exist is just as terrible.
I am no supporter of slavery but, at one time, it was a better option than some of the alternatives. If the choice is razing the city and putting the population to the sword or enslaving them instead, slavery is the much more humane option. Servitude beats slavery. Of course, peace beats war on the morality scale but that was not always an option.
As for EU, slavery was part of the times. To ignore it does not seem appropriate. But if there is an option to change slaves to some other trade good, I do not see what would be wrong with that. But it would be good if there was a counterbalance to slavery. Revolts would be a good idea.
Could we please climb out of our candy castle and stop pretending that the American Civil War was about slavery !!!!!
Anyone who has taken any history classes in college knows that 1. People who win wars write the histories about them and 2. The American Civil War was about the south using their constitutional right to seperate them from a government they didn't like. But since it's better and more convieniant to have 'good guys' and 'bad guys', the evil enslaving redneck southers bent on destroying and exploiting the negro race fought the good liberating all-american emancipating north.
OK, a little off topic, and I'm sure I'll get flamed on this, but please read a little history instead of instantly reproducing the Politically Correct version of history.
Oh, and we have former slaves in Europe too, in fact HALF the population of Surinam now lives in the Netherlands.
Conclusion: Keep the slaves in and have them play a significant role in the game, tradable, economically important and able to revolt (this can be done like one of the few things done right in CTP, a slave population of X requires a military force of Y to keep in check).
BTW This is becoming the best thread so far ! keep it up people !
P.S. The Italian Football team turned the game into a travesty tonight !
Anyone who has taken any history classes in college knows that 1. People who win wars write the histories about them and 2. The American Civil War was about the south using their constitutional right to seperate them from a government they didn't like. But since it's better and more convieniant to have 'good guys' and 'bad guys', the evil enslaving redneck southers bent on destroying and exploiting the negro race fought the good liberating all-american emancipating north.
OK, a little off topic, and I'm sure I'll get flamed on this, but please read a little history instead of instantly reproducing the Politically Correct version of history.
Oh, and we have former slaves in Europe too, in fact HALF the population of Surinam now lives in the Netherlands.
Conclusion: Keep the slaves in and have them play a significant role in the game, tradable, economically important and able to revolt (this can be done like one of the few things done right in CTP, a slave population of X requires a military force of Y to keep in check).
BTW This is becoming the best thread so far ! keep it up people !
P.S. The Italian Football team turned the game into a travesty tonight !
Actually, the roots of the ACW, like any war, are a bit complex. The simplistic view is that a weakness in the US constitution (states rights vs. federal rights, if you will) was exposed by the issue of slavery. Slavery was not the 'cause' of the Civil War, but it was the issue that became the focus of escalating tensions that eventually erupted into Civil War. It's like saying that the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand was the 'cause' of World War One. It wasn't the 'cause', but it was the flashpoint that set the whole war into motion. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
Scott
PS - Since slave populations aren't represented in the game, I don't think that revolts and garrisions et al will be included.
Scott
PS - Since slave populations aren't represented in the game, I don't think that revolts and garrisions et al will be included.
Slavery was certainly was one of the major issues and the abolition of slavery one of the major results of the war. Sure there are the issues of states' rights, the political balance between the North and South (hint: slavery is important here) and the economic differences (such as tariffs) between the North and South involved (hint: slavery played a major part in this issue as well) but to say that slavery had no cause in the Civil War is false. Slavery had been a major issue in the USA from the formation of the country. By the time of the Civil War, slavery is all but abolished in the North but, at least in the minds of many Southerners, vital to the economy of the South. There was the Underground Railroad, the illegal slave trade, Bleeding Kansas, the Fugitive Slave Acts, Uncle Tom's Cabin, the Missouri Compromise and the Compromise of 1850 (which is said to have postponed the Civil War by 10 years), abolitionist movements, John Brown's Raid and all sorts of other events that helped lead up to this conflict.
OK, but why would they want to leave? Slavery is one of the big issues here, intertwined with economic policy and political balance (the South had a smaller population than the North but tenuously remained even in the Senate because it had an equal number of states).
Great. But I doubt that you have anywhere near the problems that is found in the USA. I would guess that the people from Suriname moved to Holland by choice and didn't have to spend a century there as second class citizens. That cannot be said for most Africans in the USA.
The New York Yankees lost another game yesterday.
I don't want to add anymore wood to the fire but you are both interpreting the ACW in your own way. Every historical 'fact' have ideological value so please at least calm down.
My intention is to point out that this topic is UNFRUITFUL as
1) This game is not abour the ACW 1861-1865.
2) There is slaves in the game. If you don't like it that is actually your problem.
3) I fully understand that americans and many other people have a 'problem' with slavery (I'm one of them), but that isn't a reason to behave like a giraffe.
4) I love all of you people even if you wouldn't like my views.
/Greven ( love all, command all
)[This message has been edited by Greven (edited 29-06-2000).]
Heres a few tads of info for you all, Im not flaming, just telling you somthing about slavery and the Us civil war.
The war was to unite ( or disband depending on your view) the United states
Slavery was a secondary issue.
Abe lincon was qouted as saying
' If i could save the union by freeing all the slaves i would, If i could save the union by freeing some of the slaves i would, and if i coudl save the union by freeing none of the slaves i would'
Abes main goal in freeing the slaves was to weaken the south.
Many northerers hated the emacipation proclamation. They were fighting the war to save the union, not free the slaves.
slavery was an issue, but the Flashpoint was states right and the election of Abe lincon, and that is the truth and that cant be changed no matter how much you want it to be otherwise.
The war was to unite ( or disband depending on your view) the United states
Slavery was a secondary issue.
Abe lincon was qouted as saying
' If i could save the union by freeing all the slaves i would, If i could save the union by freeing some of the slaves i would, and if i coudl save the union by freeing none of the slaves i would'
Abes main goal in freeing the slaves was to weaken the south.
Many northerers hated the emacipation proclamation. They were fighting the war to save the union, not free the slaves.
slavery was an issue, but the Flashpoint was states right and the election of Abe lincon, and that is the truth and that cant be changed no matter how much you want it to be otherwise.
doomdark, i support free flow of information and am against facism, but i just dont think i want to be in a game and say 'damn, price of slaves went up' or 'crap, spain has a monopoly of slaves in the venitian CoT'
Aside from APKicks, the rest of us Yanks are not morally opposed to having slavery represented in the game. Everybody in the forum whose interested in EU wants it to succeed commercially. EU chances of becoming a commercial success are sadly increased by changing the reference to slaves into something less inflamatory (Coconuts?) in the US version of the game.
Note to Publisher - Please leave a patch on the website so I can change the Coconuts back into Slaves, Thanks.
- Tacticon
Note to Publisher - Please leave a patch on the website so I can change the Coconuts back into Slaves, Thanks.
- Tacticon
quote:
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Oh, and we have former slaves in Europe too, in fact HALF the population of Surinam now lives in the Netherlands.
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Actually, I think it is over half.....
Holland itself has a bad history where slavery is concerned, and there will probably will be a remembrance monument for the slavery crimes we committed.
So Holland, as the USA ( although we never had slave sin Holland itslef) has a bad histroy with slavery...The differnece. We aren;t that scared to talk about it, and try to learn from the past instead of trying to cover it up and deny it.
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Oh, and we have former slaves in Europe too, in fact HALF the population of Surinam now lives in the Netherlands.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, I think it is over half.....
Holland itself has a bad history where slavery is concerned, and there will probably will be a remembrance monument for the slavery crimes we committed.
So Holland, as the USA ( although we never had slave sin Holland itslef) has a bad histroy with slavery...The differnece. We aren;t that scared to talk about it, and try to learn from the past instead of trying to cover it up and deny it.
I just want to get this straight, AP; you wouldn't like hearing the engine say things like: 'Price of commodities: Slaves up 2 ducats' but you don't object to it saying: 'Swedish army #3 loses 7500 men to attrition (i.e. a lot of poor Finnish and Swedish conscripts become ill, freeze to death or starve' or 'Revolt in Greece successfully repressed' (i.e. the Turkish soldiers rampage around the countryside killing civilians after the half-trained rebel 'Scum' get the axe), or even 'Province of Novgorod has upgraded to Marshal' (i.e. it becomes easier to arrest Ivan Average for sedition against the State). Is violence and death better than enslavement? (even though violence and death is obviously more PC than sex, if one believes the U.S. move PG system...)
Come one! I realize (as has been said here earlier) that U.S. citizens might have more trouble with the issue of slavery in the game
than Europeans. But cencoring away parts of history _is_ a bit over the top, isn't it? Those things, bad as they may have been, happened...and bad things happen today without us doing much about it...some of the actions of the government of China springs to mind, or ye olde Cuban blocade, which haven no doubt caused a lot of suffering without any cause but spite...
Ok, enough of that......the point being, I doubt cencoring away a part of the game that's easy to implement and represents a very usual practice in the 18th/19th centuries is the way to go...especially when I heard some people on this forum propose to use EU as a learning tool in school.
-Endre Fodstad
Come one! I realize (as has been said here earlier) that U.S. citizens might have more trouble with the issue of slavery in the game
than Europeans. But cencoring away parts of history _is_ a bit over the top, isn't it? Those things, bad as they may have been, happened...and bad things happen today without us doing much about it...some of the actions of the government of China springs to mind, or ye olde Cuban blocade, which haven no doubt caused a lot of suffering without any cause but spite...
Ok, enough of that......the point being, I doubt cencoring away a part of the game that's easy to implement and represents a very usual practice in the 18th/19th centuries is the way to go...especially when I heard some people on this forum propose to use EU as a learning tool in school.
-Endre Fodstad
Dutch slavers where very active and that is certainly a negitive. I would say though that at least those of you in Europe didn't tear your country in half over it. Part of the reason this is still an unplesant topic is that in the U.S. we still have idiots that believe we should still have slaves. The KKK has rallies, marches ect. ect. We had a former 'Grand Master - David Duke' achieve some political clout a few years back, stupid things like that still rise up occasionally and remind us on the badness of the past.
I just want to make one comment about the Cuban blockade. It made a great deal of sense during the Cold War (remember, Cuba was on the side of the Soviets and Fidel helped push the world almost to WWIII with the Cuban Missile Crisis) though it may have outlived its usefulness. In addition, all Castro has to do to lift the embargo (its not really a blockade) tomorrow is to have free elections and release political prisoners. This isn't just about spite (though it is involved) and Fidel Castro is gets a generous amount blame for this suffering.
Otherwise, good post.
i dont want to deny, or cover it up, but i dont want to re inact it.
my views are only my own, and i do not represent the views of others
my views are only my own, and i do not represent the views of others
Well, actually, AP, you'd have the room in EU to play a moral state (a rare occurrence indeed) and systematically kick the butt of all rogue-states who start on slave-trading... (the UK has a go later, during the XIXth century, patrolling the coasts of Africa to get slaveships, and intervening in Sudan - though some of you cynics will say it was just a cover-up for colonisation - well, it was, and was not).
The simulation of slave-trade is not a new occurrence in computer game, there was this old and boring Colonization-like game called Gold of Americas, which simulated slavery, as a workforce device more than a goods, actually.
The simulation of slave-trade is not a new occurrence in computer game, there was this old and boring Colonization-like game called Gold of Americas, which simulated slavery, as a workforce device more than a goods, actually.
I find it funny that there can be such divergent opinions on the US civil war and the Cuban embargo (I realize passion and emotion are what drive these arguments, not necessarily history). My POV will likely be considered no more valid than another, but...
Please show me where in the Consitution it says that states have the right to succede, give me the Article where that is written. The southerners in power knew which way the wind was blowing (and had for a long time) and they were refusing to voluntarily give up their way of life, e.g. plantations with slaves. Succeding was their response. A rather extreme response which the US has been paying for a long time.
As for the Cuban embargo, as I recall, China has not had free elections or released any political prisoners, yet the US just recently voted permanent MFN status on them with the long term goal of entry into the WTO. Spite, nah, nothing like that going on.
The US just doesn't like to be made to look bad by a small 'third-rate country', just ask Saddam.
Just two snapshots of issues much more complicated than passions warrant.
Please show me where in the Consitution it says that states have the right to succede, give me the Article where that is written. The southerners in power knew which way the wind was blowing (and had for a long time) and they were refusing to voluntarily give up their way of life, e.g. plantations with slaves. Succeding was their response. A rather extreme response which the US has been paying for a long time.
As for the Cuban embargo, as I recall, China has not had free elections or released any political prisoners, yet the US just recently voted permanent MFN status on them with the long term goal of entry into the WTO. Spite, nah, nothing like that going on.
The US just doesn't like to be made to look bad by a small 'third-rate country', just ask Saddam.
Just two snapshots of issues much more complicated than passions warrant.