Skylines is Looking Fantastic in Some Areas, Not Good in Others

[medopu]

I wanna correct some guys that told we'll start with a 2kmx2km map and upgrading it 9 times. The map size will be 36kmx36km, then we'll start with a 4kmx4km. Simcity 4 4x4 map size isn't the same 4kmx4km of nowadays 3d city simulators.

EDIT: If you want a City simulator that sold well, how about Simcity 2013 that sold nearly 3M copies? If you want that this game has nice sales, then buy it

where did you get that info? Surely not from the devs. If devs were clear about anything at all, they were clear, that map size will be 36km^2... I have posted video-proof from a gameplay video, where developers do just that, here's another proof:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...reenshots!&p=18051899&viewfull=1#post18051899

So I tried to paint this map in a sensible way, I hope I managed. Basically the first solid square is the starting 2x2km block on this map. Once you unlock the next segment you can expand in any of the four ways indicated by the shoddily drawn arrows. So if you theoretically expanded into the lined square, you could then expand in any direction from that square too. So it's a dynamic growth. You could, theoretically, continue expanding only that way and get a 2x16km map.

If maps we're 36x36 km, i would be a happy boy right now. That is an area of a modern-day Paris. I would be very happy, but I know that's just impossible with the Unity engine. It wouldn't be playable unless you own a super-computer. Maybe one day in the future.

***

Also, regarding the "maps sizes are small" comment above- No they aren't. The maps sizes are actually very generous, and seeing as how you can take up 9 tiles, putting a larger, more realistic power plant or two in one of those tiles would be an insignificant amount of land.

Are generous? Really? Thanks for that comment because It's just an opinion. Or you could find me a city bigger than, say lyon that covers 36km^2. My favorite city is Hamburg. Hamburg needs a space of 700km^2. These are the realistic dimensions that we should be talking about.

And with the size of the city-region that we get, you could as well say: 1 tile for power plants, 1 tile for land-fill, 1 or 2 tiles for airports, not to mention FARMS, and you already filled about half of your 9 tiles that you are given.
Here's where modding community can come to help to us autists in need of realisticly sized structures:
With mods I believe, we will be able to unlock more city tiles, which means that we might have even maybe 20 city tiles. This means, that we can easily sacrifice a quarter of those 2x2km city tiles for our realistic airports, our realistic farms and other realistic things, that take up a lot of space.

 

[fefenc]

36kmx36km wouldn't be the same thing as 36km²?

 

[medopu]

36kmx36km wouldn't be the same thing as 36km²?

AFAIK 6 km × 6 km = 36 km km or 36 km^2

 

[Synthtronic]

1 tile 2x2km = 4km²
The full map has 10x10km =100km² (25 tiles)
You can play max. 9 tiles 4km²x9 = 36km²

 

[co_martsu]

First of all thanks for the positive feedback! And then a few comments on the available building sizes. 4x4 is the maximum for the zoned buildings. There are slightly bigger building options for the city services that you can place on the map individually. The size of the buildings are what they are due to technical and artistic limitations and what we consider the best option for the gameplay. Reserving one map tile just for one transport option might not be the best option in terms of the gameplay, for example.

Why we need to make these types of decisions then? Fitting 1 000 000 citizens to an area for what we in Finland consider reasonable for about 50 000 residents is not very realistic (though us Finns like our personal space so this is not a universal truth), yet from my understanding it's more appealing to have a big city in terms of population than the size of one individual building.

I also know that everyone will not be happy with the style, size, look and stats of the buildings we make so there will be a tool for modders to bring their own assets in the game. I hope it allows everyone to enjoy Cities: Skylines like they want.

 

[medopu]

Reserving one map tile just for one transport option might not be the best option in terms of the gameplay, for example.

I don't necessarily dissagree with you, but I don't exactly understand why?

What i imagine is an empty city tile ... that's reserved for an airport. Well, at the start of the game, it would be empty, but as you progress with your city, you would make a road connection ther, and other infrastructural connections, and then you could start building an airport there.

I know it's not the most elegant solution, but i don't know what's so terribly wrong about it either?

 

[co_martsu]

I don't necessarily dissagree with you, but I don't exactly understand why?

What i imagine is an empty city tile ... that's reserved for an airport. Well, at the start of the game, it would be empty, but as you progress with your city, you would make a road connection ther, and other infrastructural connections, and then you could start building an airport there.

I know it's not the most elegant solution, but i don't know what's so terribly wrong about it either?

I don't think there are only rights or wrongs here. However we want you to be able to build other things on that map tile than just the airport. That's why the airport is not realistic in size.

 

[charlesnew]

I'm fine with you not really making airports bigger. You said that the game is highly moddable, and I think that bigger and more realistic airports are gonna be one of the first mods to come out if you don't make it like that before launch.

 

[kent87]

I completely understand what you mean co_martsu and I agree with that .

 

[outohyypio]

I dont mind if the airport isn't the size of a real one, but please tell me you are balancing the size to be part of the cost of having an airport. Placing one in the city center should not be wise usage of the valuable land.

 

[Zed68]

I don't necessarily dissagree with you, but I don't exactly understand why?

What i imagine is an empty city tile ... that's reserved for an airport. Well, at the start of the game, it would be empty, but as you progress with your city, you would make a road connection ther, and other infrastructural connections, and then you could start building an airport there.

I know it's not the most elegant solution, but i don't know what's so terribly wrong about it either?

Well... that's a good idea IMO.

Big airports are never in the heart of a city, always near one but not inside.

 

[NickSlip]

And then a few comments on the available building sizes. 4x4 is the maximum for the zoned buildings. There are slightly bigger building options for the city services that you can place on the map individually. The size of the buildings are what they are due to technical and artistic limitations and what we consider the best option for the gameplay.

This is quite disappointing. Surely there will be at the very least future support for zoned lots larger than 4x4, so modders can have the option of making larger zoned buildings, no?

 

[CalPolyFan]

This is quite disappointing. Surely there will be at the very least future support for zoned lots larger than 4x4, so modders can have the option of making larger zoned buildings, no?

Agree. To me, all "non landmark" commercial buildings should grow and never be plopped. Or, they should have the option to turn plopping of large skyscrapers on/off.

I am aware that you apparently have to "earn" these larger skyscrapers and then it is "unlocked" and you can place it. I would prefer not to have the mayor plopping any non-government buildings.


To me though, having a large skyscraper grow organically, instead of you forcing it on your city is the point of the entire simulation. It is the most exciting time, as you potentially could watch that building first clear the site-

then, you would see the basement levels, ground level, and then base of the building, floor by floor, watching, and waiting to see how tall it will be.. That is what makes a city builder fun- To me plopping is very cheesy, and artificial and ruins a lot of the game play.

Organic skyscraper growth is IMO the most fun thing, and having 5X5 and 6X6, even 7X7 zones (the larger zones sizes wouldn't have as many buildings obviously), with skyscrapers and malls and commercial and residential should be incorporated into this game IMO.

I understand the 2X2 Kilometer work space on cities. I just hope that a very nice "city overview" option is available to view it in entirety.


If CO is able to fix a few of these minor issues with the game, this game will be bigger than Sim City. I guess I don't understand the complexity of programming a game though.

 

[slornie]

First of all thanks for the positive feedback! And then a few comments on the available building sizes. 4x4 is the maximum for the zoned buildings. There are slightly bigger building options for the city services that you can place on the map individually. The size of the buildings are what they are due to technical and artistic limitations and what we consider the best option for the gameplay.

Is the 4x4 limit for zoned buildings hard coded, or just an artistic decision? Could modders create zoned buildings that take larger plots (say 5x4 to 8x4 with the long edge along the road) and still have them appear properly/automatically in zones?

Or how about, along the vein of wall-to-wall buildings, being able to programme a building/plot so that it merges with an adjacent one of the same type? Apologies for the quality of the example, but I'm thinking of Lego Loco here. Watch the red houses with yellow roofs in the bottom left corner of this video when he goes from "build" to "play" mode.

I don't think there are only rights or wrongs here. However we want you to be able to build other things on that map tile than just the airport. That's why the airport is not realistic in size.

What if placing an airport was done in a similar fashion to expanding to a new map tile? You select the tile and say "I want this to be my airport". Instead of unlocking it for building your city, it just allows an airport/related infrastructure and is in addition to the nice playable map tiles.

 

[NickSlip]

Agree. To me, all "non landmark" commercial buildings should grow and never be plopped. Or, they should have the option to turn plopping of large skyscrapers on/off.

I am aware that you apparently have to "earn" these larger skyscrapers and then it is "unlocked" and you can place it. I would prefer not to have the mayor plopping any non-government buildings.


To me though, having a large skyscraper grow organically, instead of you forcing it on your city is the point of the entire simulation. It is the most exciting time, as you potentially could watch that building first clear the site-

then, you would see the basement levels, ground level, and then base of the building, floor by floor, watching, and waiting to see how tall it will be.. That is what makes a city builder fun- To me plopping is very cheesy, and artificial and ruins a lot of the game play.

Organic skyscraper growth is IMO the most fun thing, and having 5X5 and 6X6, even 7X7 zones (the larger zones sizes wouldn't have as many buildings obviously), with skyscrapers and malls and commercial and residential should be incorporated into this game IMO.

I understand the 2X2 Kilometer work space on cities. I just hope that a very nice "city overview" option is available to view it in entirety.


If CO is able to fix a few of these minor issues with the game, this game will be bigger than Sim City. I guess I don't understand the complexity of programming a game though.

You hit the nail on the head. I remember my very first skyscrapers in SimCity - it was so very satisfying to watch my hard work in creating demand and desirability result in the growth of a high-rise in my downtown. I pretty much play the game for moments like those, so resorting to plopping skyscrapers because your growable lot size is only 4x4 destroys the magic found there.

It seems like Paradox has made this a dead-set issue, which really disappoints me. Maybe the programming would be way harder than it looks, but I just can't see any good reason why the lot size has to be limited when you're going to have larger structures in the game anyway. How about instead of making the available lots extend 4 blocks from the road, they make it extend 6, and then the player can choose to only zone 4 away if they want (which would certainly be necessary early in the game due to the smaller buildings). Or even better, how about only giving the ability to fully zone 6 blocks away when high density is selected? If Paradox truly wants to make this a worthy, next-gen city simulation game, they're going to have to put a bit more thought in this aspect IMO.

And regarding the "artistic and technical limitations" that apparently limit the current lot size, we're going to have cities that are 36km^2 large. The ENTIRE map, as far as I know, is going to amount to 100km^2 total. SimCity 4 allowed lot sizes that were (scaled relative to this game) much bigger than this game's 4x4... and the largest city size in that game was 16km^2. There's not much of an excuse there, imo.

 

[The-Eradicator]

The airport does not need to be realistic in seize. It just HAS to be realistic looking!!!!

 

[CalPolyFan]

Or even better, how about only giving the ability to fully zone 6 blocks away when high density is selected? If Paradox truly wants to make this a worthy, next-gen city simulation game, they're going to have to put a bit more thought in this aspect IMO.

I think that would be a good solution- also maybe a certain size of road (larger than the regular road) would be required for say the largest zones size? Or maybe not.. I think up to 6X6 zone size would be plenty.

I also think that a 4X4 zone size is a good "default" laying size, but like you said, players should be allowed to add more zoning if they so choose. If the lot is too big, it won't grow, just like in SimCity 4.

One other thing... I hope that the residential and commercial buildings will have a larger scale involving R-I R-2 R-3 or R$ R$$ R$$$ and instead have a scale of 1-10 regarding land value.

Then, later, when player made buildings are uploaded, players could specify which class the building model they made corresponds to, say it would fit into R5 R6 R7 because it's a mid-to upper scale residential condominium. That information would be tagged, and that building would grow under those conditions. This would of course allow more variation between land value areas in the city.

 

[Greygor69]

I suppose if we have the default CO sized Airports and Ports and modding allows for the addition of modular Airports and Ports that allow those who do want "realistic" sized buildings then that would be the best of both worlds.

 

[CorkMan]

So is the 4X4 plot size hard coded into the game? You can't get any bigger plot sizes?

 

[Baro]

So is the 4X4 plot size hard coded into the game? You can't get any bigger plot sizes?

I'm sure you could get bigger with plopped buildings, but the actual zoning system seems hard coded to only allow buildings within 4 tiles of a road. You can't zone "deeper" than 4 tiles from a road. This, combined with 4x4 being the default building size, is going to result in a lot of very samey looking cities where everyone makes 8 wide blocks as the default. Building anything other than 8 wide blocks will be pointless. Any smaller and you can't fit 2 rows of buildings, any bigger and you have empty wasted land between.