Mr. Capiatlist

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The problem with ES system already well explained.
Ah yes... those two posts where you called it quote-unquote rubbish.

I'm not seeing your issue. Skyrim you leveled up by increasing skills, 10 skill increases to one level increase and at the level you could increase one of three core attributes (health, magic, stamina). To increase a skill you had to actively use that skill and the returns were already diminishing so the amount of sneaking to get your first skill increase was not equal or even close to your last. So yes, you could, in theory, do what my buddy did freshmen year of college for Oblivion and build a lego robot that pulled the trigger of his Xbox controller 24/7 which made his character cast a basic heal spell so he could grind that skill... but I would point out that he built and programmed a robot so... I'm not really seeing this as an exploit.

Plus in Skyrim this was balanced out because the XP earned toward skills like heal and conjuration required you to actually do damage or heal damage. You couldn't just game the system like my buddy did in university.

And you've failed to address the fairness is the KOTOR system where I can level up skills that I've never used with the intent to break the game later. Know that a major campaign point requires X diplomacy, don't bother using diplomacy, just level up and spend your skill points where you need to. This is a flaw with most table-top games (games that I love anyway). You get the XP and you can spend it on anything you want. Want to learn three languages in the course of a single night? Done. Want to learn how to do amazing flips while killing loads of baddies? Done. No need to actually train those abilities. No need to actually work for them. Just spend points. Done. No questions asked.

And in games like Kotor, D&D, and Pathfinder this leads to power builds. Since everyone levels essentially exactly the same all you need to do is order off the menu just like the guide says. Grind until you're level five, dump skill points in X, Y, and Z, and you've got the most efficient build. At least in Skyrim you have to pay lip service to the skills you want to grind.
 

Silfae

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So yes, you could, in theory, do what my buddy did freshmen year of college for Oblivion and build a lego robot that pulled the trigger of his Xbox controller 24/7 which made his character cast a basic heal spell so he could grind that skill... but I would point out that he built and programmed a robot so... I'm not really seeing this as an exploit.
I mean.. at that point.. you might as well console-cheat... What's the difference?
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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I mean.. at that point.. you might as well console-cheat... What's the difference?
We're engineers, it's a "because I can" sort of thing.

Also X-box.
 

Silfae

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Right, X-box, sorry; I read it, but my mind automatically rewired Skyrim with pc experience.
 

Greyhart

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Of course all very interesting.

I like the skill levelling system in ES games, not that it is perfect of course. However it does tend towards more realism at least.

If it was me I would get rid of the entire idea of levels completely in both skills and overall. Instead I would have something along the lines of a bar that showed number of hours spend practising. Then when you rest each night you would choose what to spend your time doing i.e. chatting (increase diplomacy), sparing (increase fighting), reading (increase magic). This would avoid just having to repeat actions over and over in game. However actions in game would effect the hours spent practising.

What is it they say you need to do a task for 1,500 hours to be an expert at it.

You would then have degrading skills with time.

Would also make resting something other than restore health spell.
 

Amigo 76

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I don't want to tank a system before I see it and play with it. Just saying its dynamic and improves through use doesn't mean it's bad. Just because that's the way things are in TES games, doesn't mean it will be the same here.

I still consider Skyrim an improvement over earlier Elder Scrolls games where I spent more time doing silly things like jumping under short bridges, walking while sneaking in the corner of an inn, or letting a crab beat on my armor while I read a book, to train my character to level up rather than going adventuring into the dungeons. Honestly, if I trained outside of my fighting skills in Skyrim enemies scaled in such a way I felt punished for it as my 10 points of blacksmith was 10 points of fighting skill for them.
 

nauticalweasel

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From reading the dev diary the impression I got was not Skyrim, but rather old school rpg's like Stormbringer, which has a similar mechanic for skill gain but is rather less exploitable. The main difference being you can only gain experience once per encounter/adventure/session depending on the GM meaning that endlessly blocking wouldn't help (much.) I prefer that system because I like the practice makes perfect approach, and isn't as exploitable.
 

RVallant

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I agree with you there. There might be a cap on certain skills or a rate of deterioration. Say I have a Sword rating of 100 and now I want to learn Fire magic (making shit up here), if I don't keep up with my Swording practice my proficiency will go down.

Class checks can be done with this more open system too. Certain skills will make it obvious to others what you are like. Do a lot of manual labor, it shows. Stay inside and read all day, that shows too. Those 'skills' can and should influence NPC interaction too.

There can be mechanisms to prevent cheesing the system and making the system more immersive and impactful.

The problem with the dynamic thing, for me anyway, is the game doesn't take place over a long enough time to justify skill decline imho.

If I stop twirling my sword for a week, I won't get worse at it. If I slack off for months, maybe a soft-decline. If I slack of for years, a hard decline. IN a game where things might swing by in hours, but is mere minutes for the player, it's a nuisance when the skills drop.