Single Player Considerations

[unmerged(4444)]

Originally posted by Nikolai II
Would make the income increase more like 33%+ instead of 100%+ for promoting a TC, sounds like a good enough idea, doubling income makes them pretty mandatory.

I suspect that making them mandatory was the intention (especially since the ai always builds them right away). I support the idea but agree that you should still get some census taxes w/o tax collectors (50% sounds good) for the two reasons already mentioned: a)the tax collector is an upgrade not a creation; the ordinary bailiff ought to be able to collect some taxes (else what is he for?) and b)the ai needs some yearly income at the beginning of the game, as he won't have the wit to pour his monthly income into treasury in order to upgrade those tax collectors asap (he won't understand the urgency), thus making him a sitting duck for the first few decades.

Phil

 

[Nikolai II]

The AI can handle it, but only if he has infra 1, else he'd need some help.

And even at +33%income(and then the old bonuses on top of this) a TC is pretty much mandatory, especially if Chief Judge is upped to give -2 RR.

 

[Wyvern]

I like the Tax Collector change, but agree the alliance leader change could do with a bit more thought especially as regards to single play. It was introduced to remove a possible exploit in MP, but it was a pretty minor exploit IMO. Well perhaps Johan can code it so this change only takes place in MP?

Also if we're going to change the absence of tax collectors to still give some income as has been advocated, I'd suggest a figure around the 20% mark, 50% is too high.

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by Wyvern
I like the Tax Collector change, but agree the alliance leader change could do with a bit more thought especially as regards to single play. It was introduced to remove a possible exploit in MP, but it was a pretty minor exploit IMO. Well perhaps Johan can code it so this change only takes place in MP?

Also if we're going to change the absence of tax collectors to still give some income as has been advocated, I'd suggest a figure around the 20% mark, 50% is too high.

With every change that makes the game a tad more difficult numerous people argue that everything is too difficult and such.
Well it isn´t but now we will see a rising inflation sometimes and historical infra/trade techs. Before this patch I never printed money until I had trade 5/infra 6 land 18/ naval 16 and then i used it to build several manufactories. After that money wasn´t a problem.

But I agree that the game difficulty should control that. From 100%-80%-50%-20%-0% with rising difficulties. Being the census tax that you receive without tax collectors. Those that would like EU2 still being a piece of cake should have it like that.

 

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by TheArchduke
With every change that makes the game a tad more difficult numerous people argue that everything is too difficult and such.
Well it isn´t but now we will see a rising inflation sometimes and historical infra/trade techs. Before this patch I never printed money until I had trade 5/infra 6 land 18/ naval 16 and then i used it to build several manufactories. After that money wasn´t a problem.

But I agree that the game difficulty should control that. From 100%-80%-50%-20%-0% with rising difficulties. Being the census tax that you receive without tax collectors. Those that would like EU2 still being a piece of cake should have it like that.

I'd prefer changes like this to be alterable in the options page, that way you aren't always forced to play on the higher difficulty levels if you want something to work in a set way.

The reason for this being of course MP issues. MP is usually played at normal difficulty, but it would be nice to have some of the higher BB effects for example occur in MP games, so an option to turn on/off BB wars would be great! .

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by TheArchduke
With every change that makes the game a tad more difficult numerous people argue that everything is too difficult and such.
Well it isn´t but now we will see a rising inflation sometimes and historical infra/trade techs. Before this patch I never printed money until I had trade 5/infra 6 land 18/ naval 16 and then i used it to build several manufactories. After that money wasn´t a problem.

A nice description of the TC issue seen from a human POV.

However, these rules also affect the AI.

I just saw an AI China (one of the wealthiest nations in the world), which did not promote a single tax collector from 1492-1519. Its starting money was used on fortresses, and at no time afterwards did it have the money to promote a tax collector. (It did raise money when at war, but that was used to raise forces immediately).

France had only appointed two tax collectors.

The Ottomans had appointed one.

However, small one province nations typically had appointed their tax collector for their initial money

Need I mention that AI loans were commonplace, because their discretionary funds (usually whatever remains of their census taxes) was near zero?

In other words, it is an issue. If nothing else, an AI issue.

 

[HydroSqueegee]

Originally posted by VinceV
The bailiff could collect them....just not as competently. (It's a promotion, not a creation)

This is the most sensible answer to the problem. The Bailiff should collect 75% of the taxes. Then is promoted to a more efficient Tax Collector who collects 100% + the tax bonus.

I was very concerned that the latest beta really nerfed SP games. I decided to sit down and try it last night as Scotland in the Grand Campaign [which I play almost every game since the NA release]. Game is currently around 1680 or so.

It was the most convoluted game I have ever seen. The beginning war between France and England ended a month into the GC.

France was somehow able to form for about 10 years in the 1440's, then the BB wars against her started. Burgundy Totally destroyed her and Many Minors revolted away. France never recovered. Spain is now a landlocked nation of 3 provinces. All the rest revolted away. I crushed England with my army of 10,000 men by 1470. Their government collapsed and I took everything but their capital.

Russia actually formed; I haven’t seen this in months.

The Ottomans were a mighty nation of 4 provinces. Sweden was a non threat. And Western Europe from Brittany to Poland was nothing but revolted away Minors.

More territory changed hands to rebellion defections than to wars because the AI cannot keep an army.

All French provinces have switched ownership at least 15 times in 200 years. Owners range from France, Burgundy, Aragon, and Loraine to All the Minors that were annexed then Broke off because the AI cannot raise an army.

I am not in an Alliance and Have not been in one since 1500 or so. I am almost never an alliance Leader, but join a lot of them. There is no benefit when I am the only power, make all the gains, and then have a peace settled by the leader who has done nothing.

Inflation isnt too bad, but 17% at 1500 is a little high. Even then, the AI's inflation was much worse than my own at that time. Almost double.

I do love the change to Governors, but would like the see the max deflation raised to 0.5% per year.



So yes, this has highly affected the AI. The majors more than the minors. The Minors will trounce anyone with whatever army they have, then when thats gone, they themselves are trounced by someone else with an army. Their is almost no resistance in any wars at all. The AI does not promote TC's right off the bat. They are too busy with wars and raising armies. After a few decades, perhaps one or 2 will be promoted, but its few and far between. Even small forts are a rarity, but still more common than TC's. And what i find very funny, is that provinces change hands so fast due to lack of militaries, any TC that was promoted is now lost. So its a forever repeating cycle.


On a side note, My navy consisted of 6 warships and 10 transports. For some reason, my naval budget saw this as 3 warships, 4 galleys and 10 transports. Weird.

 

[MarkDey]

I'd just like to add my voice to the growing chorus of concerned single-players out there. I'd hate to see a good SP game be crippled by new changes that seem to make sense in an MP world. In addition, not every nation can be played by a human in an MP game, so these changes that the AI can't handle will also have an effect on the many AI nations in MP games, altering them significantly.

As for my specific thoughts, I like the idea of increasing the max inflation reduction cap to be .5%/yr instead of the new .25%/yr. It just seems like it would take much too long to significantly reduce the inflation for a large nation. They would have to promote a mayor in all provinces, and then wait 4 years per percent of inflation. Granted, they may have Exceptional Years, but that's never a sure thing.

On the issue of Tax Collectors, the ideas I've heard are:
1. every provence gets 100% census tax w/o a TC (state before patch)

2. every core provence gets 100% census tax w/o a TC, the rest get 0% until a TC is present

3. every provence gets X % census tax w/o a TC, but 100% with a TC, where X depends on difficulty level

4. every provence gets X % census tax w/o a TC, but 100% with a TC, where X is a constant

5. Only AI countries get 100% census tax from all provinces, humans get nothing until a TC is present

I like option #3. However, setting X = 0 on Very Hard means that we're right back to where we started - the AI can't handle it. Perhaps 25% would be an acceptable minimum for the AI?. I also like option #5. Were there any TC ideas that I missed?

-Mark

 

[unmerged(5161)]

Archduke, read the title of the thread. I am not saying it makes the game much harder on the player, it makes it harder on the AI.

 

[unmerged(14597)]

The answer is simple, make TCs cost only 1d for the ai. They'll build them everywhere. Still not enough? Move TC to infra 0. Should solve all the ai difficulties.

-stillzig

 

[unmerged(10802)]

I've never played mp (it'd take too long and my net disconnects after 2 hours and I'm not that good and whatnot) and I think more does have to be put into single player.
With this new patch the game has been very screwy.
Spain has no colonies that I know of and I've explored most of central and north America and the Caribean and Ragusa is a colonial power. The Ottomans took Constantinople 100 years late and as such are stuck in their old capital and Wallachia had quite a large empire at one point. Everything just seems screwy in general.

 

[Szordrin]

I think you miss the initial point of the post. It's obvious for the SP gamer, like myself, that many of the changes made in the beta will seriously hinder a SP game. Putting a lot more decisions on the AI's back is never an improvement in this case. So i believe the concern here is that the future patch, if released in the curent state, will do more damage to the SP game.
The easiest solution would be to release two variants, one to include the bug fixes and improvements that don't hinder the AI or add new features(like the defender of the faith thing) and one for the MP, but while this could be easily done, i believe a future patch would be a logistical nightmare.
Don't get me wrong, many of the new aditions to the game are briliant and i'm sure they work well in MP and with the knoledge of the advanced players, but if these are to be included in a future patch, i think that it should either be tweacked as to be suitable for the SP AI, or only the variant for MP should include most of these.
And one more thing, what improvements would you like to see in the SP variant(let's hope it would be one)?

 

[unmerged(15394)]

Unfortunately i fail to see the difference between MP and SP. The AI is needed in both as far as I can tell. I know there have been ventures into the brave new world of 20 player games, but what happens when 2 people want to get together and play MP. You can't have the rest of the world getting messed up.

I think all the changes are in the right direction. I think it just needs some more thought and testing in implementing them so the AI does not get screwed up. I don't think it would be good to start a division btw the MP and SP game engine. Especially when it is the same AI in each. But I am just a newb.

 

[corporateslave]

Originally posted by HydroSqueegee
I was very concerned that the latest beta really nerfed SP games. I decided to sit down and try it... It was the most convoluted game I have ever seen.

So far I've completed three hands off games with the Mar29 patch, and my experience mirrors yours 100%. The AI cannot effectively handle these changes.

In my hands off games, no major AI nation was able to survive the GC intact. England, France, Spain, Ottomans, Timurids, Russia, Mamelukes... All broke up into their component parts. Revolter nations everywhere.

There seem to be two suggestions floating around: 1) enable the AI to cheat this rule; or 2) allow some percentage of tax collection without a TC, and then have the percentage bump up to 100% only with a TC. Of the two, I prefer the first. AI cheats are OK when they prevent the AI from self-destructing.

--Corporateslave

 

[danimoth25]

i didn't notice the TC thing until i saw this thread...now i'm afraid of playing the new beta i just installed in SP. The others were manageable somewhat...but this just stinks. Now i have an extra copy of eu2 installed (1.05) just for SP.

personally, i think the absence of a TC in a provence should still let the provence provide 45%-70% census income. Tax collectors weren't invented in the Renaissance...heck, they are notorious in the Bible.

and just in case you're wondering (you probably aren't ), i'm using 1.05 in SP because i like easily being able to turn Granada into a mediterranian menace and Wallachia into an African super-power.

chris

 

[Gebhard Blucher]

@danimoth

Anything in particular in 1.06 making life more difficult for minors/RotW countries?

I've read the list of changes, but I haven't played enough since 1.05 to see the forest from all the trees.

Anyone have on hand any links to older forum threads analyzing the impact of the new changes on the game?

 

[daedalus]

I will like to add my vote against two of the changes implemented in the newest beta

a. Changes to Tax Collectors. Changes the game to much, cripples to AI, makes the game even harder for newbies, but most of all, it is a bad fix for the underlying problem. Tax collectors are not attractive to build. This needs to be worked out a little bit, might be by augmenting the benefits of TC (75% census tax without it) or decreasing its RR penalty to +2.

b. New alliance system. The leaders of an alliance should still be the countries directly involved in the war, not someone seating in the back. It makes the player less willing to cooperate with the AI, and creates some bizarre situations.

 

[MarkDey]

As a side note, any idea if Johan and other important people know about these problems? I assumed so, but now want to make sure.

-Mark

 

[MichaelK]

I played a lot of games with new 1.06b patches in SP and each new patch was better than the previous one until the March 29 patch. It was designed to prevent exploits by hyman players in MP, but effectively crippled SP game.
The changes effect:

1. I am not sure about new alliance system. It has some good points, but actually not changes SP game too much.

2. Inflation. It is making life difficult for big countries, especially with a low techology groups (Turkey, China). May be it will be a good idea to make inflation decrease 0.5% for AI only.

3. Tax-collector change concerning annual income. This is a real issue. AI is not able to do anything as a major nation. I checked couple of games in 1500-1550. France, which was a richest and biggest country was not able to raise an army to crush rebellions. Spain was not able to colonise because of the money problems and constantly had the government collapse. At the other hand, this change make me as a hyman player to play more carefully, which is good. IMHO this option should be eigher removed or used for the hyman player only (f.e. annual income for the hyman player 100% on normal level , 50% on hard and 0% on very hard).

 

[Juice]

New Patch

Well I am in my second 1492 game since the new patch and both I am around 1630's.

First one I was Sweden and when I got to NA in 1570 there was 3 colonies there. So I colonized like crazy and own all of NA - game over. Spain has about 15 colonies and TPs and hasn't taken out a single Pagan nation. I think this is getting a little messed as this was implimented to make the game harder, well it slowed me down a little but the the AI has been stopped dead in his tracks.

Second game played as France. I went to war with Austria, Spain, England and Netherlands once each. The only non core I took from any of the countries was Flanders (from Dutch). I then spent my years with Explorers going after Africa and India. I have colonized all that is worth colonizing and conquered Benin for the COT. Then I got declared on by the Dutch so I took Flanders from him and in the process got Spain's maps. Well to my suprise NA has 3 colonies in it by England and SA has 6 in it by Spain, they also have 4 or 5 in SE NA. The only country besides me that is really even colonizing is Portugal but they haven't even put a colony in the Far East. In fact there isn't a single colony there. I have played this game very passive only annexing via diplo besides Benin and have done as much as possible not to screw with the AI.

I think that things have gone to far trying to make the game more difficult for us the human players as the AI just cannot deal with these things. I am totally against giving the AI yet another cheat so a new balance must be found on this tax thing. It has been made hard to colonize but that wasn't enough so take away everyones money but that has taken things to far as no one but human players are now colonizing, this reminds me of some earlier patches where the new world was very lonely for the human player.

Some other things that are disturbing is that in 1620 there are 4 manufactories in all of Europe and I have one that I got when I took Flanders. So here is another concern that I have, why even have them in the game if no one can even afford them. I don't even build them anymore since the costs are horrid and the fact that they seem to burn down as fast as I create them.

I also don't see many tax collectors out there except of course, that everyone of my provinces has them

Well if eveyone likes the new rules I suppose that is their choice but I am disappointed that the only way to get a challenge now is in MP. I have a great group of guys that I play with but we can't all get together enough to get my total EU fix so I play alot of SP also and that has basically made the game no fun since whoever I choose to play, the AI will not colonize so I know I can go as slow as I want with whatever country I play and there will be plenty of colonizing opportunities availible.

Sorry this post is so long but I think that this is a trend with the game that needs to be corrected and fast.

Juice