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Aug 1, 2001
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I think we need to more carefully examine the effects of the beta patch changes on Single Player games. Most people who frequent the boards are MP players. I know I am. I have played with most people I see posting on here.

But some of these changes radically affect SP games; particularly the recent tax collector and alliance changes. The AI was not designed to handle these changes, so they made stupid decisions. When you have all the major powers run by players, this is no big deal. When you have all the major powers minus the single player run by the AI, you have big problems.

The AI now has a difficult time managing its finances. Play a single player game with the new patch for about 30 years and then look at the inflation graph, the military size graph, and other graphs in the Archive. The AI just cant manage its finances with the new tax system. Once it loses its initial troops, it has a very very very hard time replacing them.

The Alliance system also drastically hinders the AIs ability to make war. The alliance leader will usually get peace fairly quickly, since they usually have no beef with the country being attacked. This especially hinders non-Western Europeans.

These problems combine to make SP a virtual cakewalk. Major Western European powers arent even scary, much less non-Westerners. The Human player can adapt to virtually any changes you make to the game, the AI has a much harder time. Even in MP, non-Player nations become incredibly weak after just a decade or two (when they lose their initial army). This is especially true in northeastern Europe (because of all the snow attrition).

Anyone else seen these problems?
 

JohnMK

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You bring up valid points. I would be all for AI nations getting census taxes regardless of tax collector presence. Yes it's an AI cheat but oh well I'm cheating since I'm human. :)
 

L G

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I think ALL countries should get the census tax, it basically hindered our game play for around 10 years trying to get any income. Was quite interesting getting only 9$ on jan 1 as France. I think that all countries should get the census tax back. Not just JohnMk's ai countries to make it "more difficult" on us. I also dont really like the new Alliance system either. I was able to peace out of several wars with the alliance leader last night when the two alliance leaders had pretty much absolutely nothing to do with the war. Not a very good system imo, hopefully it will be changed back to its old system next patch.....
 

Porcius

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I play almost exclusively SP - I don't have time for MP. And up to now I supported most of the beta changes. I haven't tried the Mar29 patch yet, so I can't speak from authority, but I fear that the latest changes to the tax system and Alliance system could make playing the game less "fun".

I'm all for making tax collectors more useful, but stripping countries of their main source of income seems a little extreme. So some players find it too easy to make money (I don't, but I play other games). Is leaving France with not enough annual income to raise a small army the solution?

The new alliance system may lead to even more easily exploited AI. The player will only create alliances - making the join alliance thing pointless. This will lead to even more clock watching than already happens as the player pauses at the expiry date to reconstruct his/her alliance before someone else does. A war between alliance member Poland and alliance member Austria will come to naught when the alliance leaders France and Russia kiss and make up. This may save Brandenburg and Prussia, but it will also make many potentially interesting wars depend on the whims of the player.

I will finish my current campaign and then test this beta patch.
 

unmerged(11323)

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i like the new tax system, it just seems to make sence. you have a tax collector, and he collects your taxes, they don't collect themselves. it also slows everybody down quite a bit. The only problem i see is that the +3 rr is huge if in a colony. It should be moved down to +2 atleast.
 

VinceV

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The bailiff could collect them....just not as competently. (It's a promotion, not a creation)
 

unmerged(11323)

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The bailiff keeps the money himself, thats why you don't pay him:)
 

unmerged(5822)

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The change is good, but it shouldn't affect the early game in the way it does.

Every province in the "civilized world" should start with a tax collector, IMO. Didn't the rulers know how to tax people before January 1st 1419?;)
 

JohnMK

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The solution is easy:

If you want money -- raise the treasury slider. Don't expect to be at 0 inflation all the time. Don't expect to be at +3 stability all the time either. Life wasn't smooth sailing for countries in this time period and well . . . it still isn't. :D
 

JohnMK

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Originally posted by L G
I think that all countries should get the census tax back. Not just JohnMk's ai countries to make it "more difficult" on us.

How's it more difficult? Go full treasury for a while, promote some tax collectors. It isn't hard to do. :)
 

Medicine Man

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I still maintain that something needs to be done about the current rules regarding tax collectors. If my previous batch of suggestions is somehow objectionable, I think one or more of the suggestions here should be implemented instead. Lower the RR of tax collectors to +2 and/or allow the AI to cheat the system.
 

JohnMK

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There's sure a huge incentive to get that first infrastructure level now. :) I *might* suggest this limitation be removed from tax collectors though. But then again infra 1 is pretty cheap and quickly acquired.
 

Medicine Man

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I'm thinking mainly about the AI now, John. I'd much rather see it overperform than underperform.
 

Shadowstrike

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What about having halved annual tax income for province without tax collectors? It would at least give some income, though it would highly encorage the playes and the AI to promtoe tax collectors.

A potential problem arises is the nations lack enough money to pay for tax collectors, and can't raise enough fund even by setting the slider at full. As long as the AI is willing to disband troops to accumulate enough money to start making money its okay. But if it doesn't, it egts stuck in an endless cycle, somewhat akin to the bankruptcy/large army cycle waaaay back in the early patches.
 
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How long has anyone played on this new patch. For all we know, it could be triggering massive bankruptcy waves for the AI far down the line.

Can somebody other than me play a campaign (1419, 1492, whatever) for at least 20 years and report back on the behavior of the AI in general? I am especially interested in confirmation of the downward trend in troops in the field. After about 40 years, I noticed that almost every AI nation only had maybe a quarter of their support limit in the field. The german states only had 2-5k each.
 

Peter Ebbesen

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Originally posted by Shadowstrike
What about having halved annual tax income for province without tax collectors? It would at least give some income, though it would highly encorage the playes and the AI to promtoe tax collectors.
Neat solution.

Actually, the AI does not need to be encouraged to build tax collectors - that is already a high priority and it does so without fail, when it has the funds - but the elimination of censes taxes until tax collectors are appointed is especially damaging to small nations at low tech levels, for which 50d is several years total income, and almost all income is taxes because of the low trade and production percentage.
 

Nikolai II

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Originally posted by Shadowstrike
What about having halved annual tax income for province without tax collectors? It would at least give some income, though it would highly encorage the playes and the AI to promtoe tax collectors.

Would make the income increase more like 33%+ instead of 100%+ for promoting a TC, sounds like a good enough idea, doubling income makes them pretty mandatory.