Silicon-based Species

[Aed]

All this is well and good but it still doesn't overcome the numerous barriers.

Carbon respiration: O2 (gas) -> life form -> CO2 (gas)
Silicon respiration: O2 (gas) -> life form -> SiO2 (solid) But that breaks down again because Si doesn't want to double bond...it wants to single bond into silicates.

This isn't a barrier, firstly most life on earth doesnt need to physically exhale a gas to live, physiological respiration is not the same thing as cellular respiration.

Secondly Earth already has plenty life that doesnt need oxygen to produce their energy, its known as anaerobic respiration and has been observed with numerous different elements and compounds.

Without boring over long chemistry, silicon based respiration simply won't work in a real-ism setting. For a simple primer on it, you can read wikipedia for an intro.

That said, from a scifi perspective I'm all in favor of the Silicoids and Chmmr. I just needed to voice up against the idea that silicon is similar enough to carbon.

Well we don't know that really, with our current state of knowledge all we can say is that its unlikely. But our current state of knowledge about the universe isnt that great, so proclaiming Silicon life an impossibility it a little presumptuous

I think silicon based life is fine for a sci fi setting, its imaginitive and still quite plausible. Certianly more than faster than light travel, which no one has a problem with, and has far more scientific knowledge going against it.

 

[Bas da Graca]

Silicon-based not so far-fetched. After all, Eathlings are made out of meat...

Meatbags! ^^

 

[Admiral Howe]

Well we don't know that really, with our current state of knowledge all we can say is that its unlikely. But our current state of knowledge about the universe isnt that great, so proclaiming Silicon life an impossibility it a little presumptuous

Assuming our knowledge of silicon chemistry is inadequate to make broad conjecture is a bit presumptuous too.

Silicon is often brought up as an analog for carbon because it will bond four times and is in the same Periodic column. Sadly, that's the end of their chemical and atomic similarities.

<Edit:>And before anyone gets any weird ideas, I fully support elemental/mineral/silicoid phenotypes in game. SciFi demands it.</Edit>

 

[The_Meme_Man]

In game? Yes, I would be all for silicon based life.

It's just that practically, silicon is only mentioned because it is the second best element for forming anything comparable to carbon compounds for biochemistry, and silicon is nowhere near as good as carbon. While we don't have a clue about the possibilities of life in the universe, we are pretty certain about the properties of carbon compared to silicon.

Now, I wonder though, what are the possibilities of carbon-based crystallized life, since carbon can also form crystals, and when we are discussing silicon life I'm assuming we are all thinking of some rock alien or another (actually, scratch that, I don't know what you guys are thinking, because this is what I am thinking, because the first things that come into my mind in terms of silicon life are things resembling that one guy from Ben 10 and the Crystal Gems from Steven Universe, yeah, I am not very cultured).

 

[Red_warning]

Would be fun. Silicon is a more rigid element compared to carbon which would probably create being that would appear rather stiff to us, something to think about when designing such beings.

 

[Admiral Howe]

Silicone vs. Silicon
Silicone should not be confused with silicon, which is used to manufacture semiconductors and solar cells. The term "silicone" refers to a family of manmade compounds, of which silicon (Si) is a key element. Shin-Etsu Handotai (part of the Shin-Etsu Group) produces semiconductor-grade silicon, and is the world's leading producer.

Taken from here, silicon, silicone, and silica are all very different.

 

[Red_warning]

This isn't a barrier, firstly most life on earth doesnt need to physically exhale a gas to live, physiological respiration is not the same thing as cellular respiration.

Secondly Earth already has plenty life that doesnt need oxygen to produce their energy, its known as anaerobic respiration and has been observed with numerous different elements and compounds.

True enough, the earth started out with very little oxygen, most of it has come as a by-product of cyanobacteria.

 

[Brownbeard]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_welding
This is a big problem for synthetics living in a vacuum...

Under assumption that synthetics are metallic. With proper tech I see this as faster production technique.

Again, as for Silica based life forms, I'd like to see a Silica based molecules on par in complexity with long chain fatty acids, sugars, amino acids. I won't even go into more complex structures like protein, starches, Apply, heat, apply pressure, throw an A-bomb on it, and you will still not synthesize anything close to what nature gives with ease. Carbon is the element of life and thats it.

 

[danest]

Perhaps there are environments that would kill carbon based life, but not silicon. Heat, toxic atmosphere, radiation, or cold extremes, perhaps? What would a theoretical silicon-based lifeform be able to survive and thrive in, that would kill/prevent carbon life?

 

[Vasious]

If Silicon based life was added, however the scientific questionability or not of it happening....

Would they need their own planet type(s)?
Could they survive on the standard 7 Carbon based Garden worlds, or need silicon based garden worlds

Would their biology require any different rules?
Surely they wont eat the same food as Carbon based life, so a different food resource for Silicon and Carbon based life
Could they share worlds with carbon based life

Or would it simply be another Phenotype?

****

Is Ammonia-Carbon based life another option as something different?

 

[ConcermedCanuck]

Generalizing a bit further, it would be interesting to see planet food sources be different for the different races..... I'm pretty sure a Fungus would get very different nutritional value from a given piece of land than a bunch of humans would.

 

[mrinku]

One carbon based species almost certainly can't eat the same food as any other Xeno carbon based species, so the food side of things is a bit moot.

(Caveat: by "can't eat" I really mean "can't extract energy from". You may well be able to consume the food, and it could even be tasty. But it would be slimming to say the least...

Naturally evolved CPUs that have become ambulatory may be a better approach for your rock/mineral people than swapping out Carbon for Silicon. At the end of the day you just need something that can self-organise, be it molecule or natural circuit or something more exotic, and let natural selection do its stuff over time.

 

[ConcermedCanuck]

@mrinku Agreed, but am I right in thinking that the game currently assumes the opposite, that 1 Food = 1 Food for everyone, regardless of species...?

 

[ShaynaLynn]

Silicone based lifeforms could be interesting. Out of all non carbon based life, silicone based has been theorized about the most. If they were to be included, I do feel like planets specifically suited to them ought to be included as well. It would probably be pretty fun to actually think about how to incorporate them. If they did decide to bring silicone based life to Stellaris, I believe that the time would be right to further make the types of life unique. For example, anthropoids might have a bonus to productivity or a bonus bringing down ethics divergence, and so on for each phenotype. Mammals might have an advantage with habitability or something. Silicone based life would have to be extremely specialized, like they can only inhabit a certain kind of planet but to offset that handicap they are given bonuses to leader lifespan and maybe a bonus to energy production. I also firmly believe that there ought to be creatures that can only inhabit the atmospheres of gas giants and there should be forms of life particularly suited to exclusively living on, what would be a toxic world to any other species. Either way, I really would like to see a greater inherent difference between the phenotypes. To me it only makes sense that a bird, a mushroom and a human will have more inherent strengths and weaknesses which are less interchangeable and more unique to their particular phenotype then they are in the base game. The current system will be a nice start but I think that phenotypes should be more than simply cosmetic.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

Please no. I hope Paradox never goes the route of energy beings, rock monsters, and metalloid super aliens. That stuff is just awful.

 

[mrinku]

@mrinku Agreed, but am I right in thinking that the game currently assumes the opposite, that 1 Food = 1 Food for everyone, regardless of species...?

Food is only produced if a Pop is assigned to the tile, or from the free orbital exploitation tile. One assumes the food *being* produced is suitable for the beings it's being produced for. Most likely some low-end low tech terraforming is going on; sterilising soil if needed and introducing suitable bacteria and bugs. Water and sunlight are the main local resources that allow food production, and those are independent of biochemistry. Unless your biochemistry is REALLY weird, and the game isn't covering that yet.

Books that go into this stuff a bit, off the top of my head are Farmer in the Sky by Robert Heinlein and some of the background bits of the Vorkosigan Saga of Lois McMaster Bujold. The former tackles the task of turning bare rock into soil better than anything else I've ever read.

 

[danest]

Please no. I hope Paradox never goes the route of energy beings, rock monsters, and metalloid super aliens. That stuff is just awful.

The unbidden (I think) are energy beings, though not playable.
As for silicon-based life, many real life scientists are saying "maybe, but not likely compared to carbon" as opposed to universally ruling silicon life out as completely impossible. Some even suggest sulfur as a long shot maybe.

 

[mrinku]

Silicone based lifeforms...
...
...phenotypes should be more than simply cosmetic.

Silicone is, however, a cornerstone of the cosmetic industry.

 

[danest]

You'd have multiple federations fighting this "Organian" end-game crisis for the right to fight each other. Heh. Hey, it's a violent galaxy.

 

[Aed]

Assuming our knowledge of silicon chemistry is inadequate to make broad conjecture is a bit presumptuous too.

Potentially, but i find as a scientist it is a much better position to take if you assume you don't know everything about something. Most exciting discoveries are made by people doing things others had assumed wasn't possible.

Silicon is often brought up as an analog for carbon because it will bond four times and is in the same Periodic column. Sadly, that's the end of their chemical and atomic similarities.

Its more its ability to form long chain molecules that singled it out for potential. Thats why Boron is also considered a possibility, despite it being a trivalent atom.

And compared to the wider periodic table carbon and silicon are very similar actually.