Sikhism = Heresy?

[dharper]

I know it's not the same as having Paradox expand the religion system, but my mod does a lot of what is being asked for here: Sikhs exist, there's a Reformation-like event chain for them, and since religious minorities exist, religions like the Jews and Jains are in it as well.

EDIT: Whoops, it seems I've already posted the same thing in this thread. Sorry about that.

 

[unmerged(804237)]

Oh wow, some genuinely backward views. Those are so lacking around here. We're mostly all equal representation feminazi man-haters, you see. Have you even looked at these forums? Pretty much nobody around here is anti-revisionist. Most people are socially progressive and/or left-wing.

From what I've seen, you're in the minority, here. Most people here I've seen have spoken out against the PC police, only a vocal minority who claim "yay for equal power despite unequal abilities and different types of intelligence (men are good at maths, women are good at talking)". And I don't think it's something to be proud of to be pro-revisionist history. "Yeah, Aztecs STRONK! They're equal to Europeans!" Though, you're just as entitled to your own opinions, just please don't try and spread them to this right-thinking website.

Sikhism is a world religion, an old world religion, a fairly damn important world religion, historically as well as presently, and your ignorance is a vice, not a virtue. I mean, learning about Sikhism was basic stuff tauught in RE lessons when I was about 8...

Posters JakeDust and DanubianCossack agree that Paradox has many more important things to do than appeal to a minority opinions. Remember, that this was Europe's time, not Asia's. Punjabia only has two provinces in the game. And there is no foul with being ignorant to men irrelevant to history. Was Napoleon a Sihk? Was Bismarck?

 

[Sun_Wu]

From what I've seen, you're in the minority, here. Most people here I've seen have spoken out against the PC police, only a vocal minority who claim "yay for equal power despite unequal abilities and different types of intelligence (men are good at maths, women are good at talking)". And I don't think it's something to be proud of to be pro-revisionist history. "Yeah, Aztecs STRONK! They're equal to Europeans!" Though, you're just as entitled to your own opinions, just please don't try and spread them to this right-thinking website.



Posters JakeDust and DanubianCossack agree that Paradox has many more important things to do than appeal to a minority opinions. Remember, that this was Europe's time, not Asia's. Punjabia only has two provinces in the game. And there is no foul with being ignorant to men irrelevant to history. Was Napoleon a Sihk? Was Bismarck?

While revisionism is often flung around is a bad thing sometimes it is necessary to revise our understanding, for example Columbus did not prove the world was round, no one wanted to fund him because he drastically underestimated the size of the globe, the previous view was actual a myth deliberately invented to slander the Middle Ages.

 

[Chamboozer]

From what I've seen, you're in the minority, here. Most people here I've seen have spoken out against the PC police, only a vocal minority who claim "yay for equal power despite unequal abilities and different types of intelligence (men are good at maths, women are good at talking)". And I don't think it's something to be proud of to be pro-revisionist history. "Yeah, Aztecs STRONK! They're equal to Europeans!" Though, you're just as entitled to your own opinions, just please don't try and spread them to this right-thinking website.



Posters JakeDust and DanubianCossack agree that Paradox has many more important things to do than appeal to a minority opinions. Remember, that this was Europe's time, not Asia's. Punjabia only has two provinces in the game. And there is no foul with being ignorant to men irrelevant to history. Was Napoleon a Sihk? Was Bismarck?

:rofl:

You joined last month and you're telling someone who's been here for years that their understanding of the forum is inferior to yours?

I hardly even know what to say.

As for revisionism, you should know that all historical study is built upon interpretation and reinterpretation. Nothing about the past is known for certain and the only way we as humanity can improve our understanding is to explore the ways in which our previous interpretations may have been wrong. That doesn't mean all revisionism is correct, but it does mean that all revisionism is good, because it challenges our preconcieved understanding of the world.

In any case, I'm no expert on Indian history but I highly doubt that Sikhs being considered important is at all new.

 

[unmerged(804237)]

While revisionism is often flung around is a bad thing sometimes it is necessary to revise our understanding, for example Columbus did not prove the world was round, no one wanted to fund him because he drastically underestimated the size of the globe, the previous view was actual a myth deliberately invented to slander the Middle Ages.

I never said that Columbus proved the world round. All I'm saying is that trying to undermine The Western Man is what's wrong with society today. The PC Police want to make us have Women and Ethnics as equal, despite unequal abilities. Aztecia was conquered by just 200 Spanish Men. Clearly, they did not and do not have the same abilities, and this gives us the right as prize to not bother giving them a religion other than "Pagan," just as how the Western Man conquering Punjabia gives us the right to not give them their own religion in the game; the spoils of war, one might say. Stop feeling White Man's guilt!

 

[208]

:rofl:

You joined last month and you're telling someone who's been here for years that their understanding of the forum is inferior to yours?

I hardly even know what to say.

I know what to say: Don't feed the troll.

 

[Chamboozer]

I know what to say: Don't feed the troll.

Yeah, I'd accused him of being one earlier but at least then I had a bit of doubt. After that post just above yours, I no longer do.

 

[Dafool]

Yeah, I'd accused him of being one earlier but at least then I had a bit of doubt. After that post just above yours, I no longer do.

Many of his other posts show the same attitude, so he's rather a very dedicated troll or a very uneducated individual. Either way, I don't think responding to him will prove very constructive. Luckily this thread has already been fairly productive with regards to the original topic. Hopefully some of its concerns have been noted by the devs.

 

[unmerged(804237)]

Yeah, I'd accused him of being one earlier but at least then I had a bit of doubt. After that post just above yours, I no longer do.

Seriously, do you live to harrass posters like me?

 

[apocriphaA]

This reminds me of some guy in the CKII forum that was from the canaries islands and thought that each should be a separate county. I realise the OP feels strongly over the presence of Sikhism in game, but ultimately it was not major religion in the time scale and appeared as a new religion in India both in the grounds of historic Hinduism and Islam. It might not be the most PC way of presenting it, but in practice, as a ruler of one religion, any new religion cropping up is a stability risk whether it is a heresy or not. Modelling Sikhism as a heresy seems reasonable to me.
As for the Hindu far right views, I cannot say that I have any familiarity with them, and I would regret agreeing with extremists in general...

 

[hwoosh]

Z

It might not be the most PC way of presenting it, but in practice, as a ruler of one religion, any new religion cropping up is a stability risk whether it is a heresy or not. Modelling Sikhism as a heresy seems reasonable to me.

It’s not really about political correctness though. This is a very loaded term that is not at all appropriate for this issue; rather, it’s about basic accuracy. But as long as Paradox gets away with failing to fix wild bloopers like putting coffee in the pre-Columbian Americas or screwing up New Zealand geography, they probably will fail to edit the portrayal of Sikhism as well.

 

[Fishman786]

This reminds me of some guy in the CKII forum that was from the canaries islands and thought that each should be a separate county. I realise the OP feels strongly over the presence of Sikhism in game, but ultimately it was not major religion in the time scale and appeared as a new religion in India both in the grounds of historic Hinduism and Islam. It might not be the most PC way of presenting it, but in practice, as a ruler of one religion, any new religion cropping up is a stability risk whether it is a heresy or not. Modelling Sikhism as a heresy seems reasonable to me.
As for the Hindu far right views, I cannot say that I have any familiarity with them, and I would regret agreeing with extremists in general...

This wasn't some nit-picking about province borders, this was about the game not depicting a large, politically-important religious group which shaped northern India from 1700 onwards. If I were a Czech I would probably be just as annoyed about there not being a proper Hussite religion.

Also it was motivated by my concern that Sikhism would be portrayed as a sect of Hinduism or ignored completely (ala Civ V before G+K expansion), which is a really sore point among Sikhs due to 19th/20th century events.


Notice I am saying 'was'. This was first posted before EUIV's release. I am quite happy now with the unique ideas for Punjab, why people have kept digging up this old thread is beyond me.



Finally, I am not going to continue discussions with certain posters who seem to believe that if they personally don't know much about something, then that thing is therefore insignificant and not worth knowing about.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

This wasn't some nit-picking about province borders, this was about the game not depicting a large, politically-important religious group which shaped northern India from 1700 onwards. If I were a Czech I would probably be just as annoyed about there not being a proper Hussite religion.

The Hussites are more of an aspect of the protestant reformation, which do exist in the game as a heresy, which does rather deserve the title of heresy as much as any of the other Catholic heresies.

As I said before, heresies seriously lack any real flavour. Most importantly, they seem to lack a proper goal beyond "lower stability." Each would have their own terms of success. (Of course, I believe that Sikhs should not simply be heresies, these are just thoughts on the subject of heresies.)

Some could lower religious tolerance of heretics and infidels (permanently or temporarily, examples would be puritans.)
Others could force a change of religion to Protestant or Reformed (Catholic heresies are the largest group in the files, the majority of their conflicting beliefs with the Church existed as anti hierarchical groups.)

 

[unmerged(804237)]

Finally, I am not going to continue discussions with certain posters who seem to believe that if they personally don't know much about something, then that thing is therefore insignificant and not worth knowing about.

This is a history game, not a PC sociology game. None of my friends nor family know what a Sihk is.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

This is a history game, not a PC sociology game. None of my friends nor family know what a Sihk is.

+1

Also, much respect for spelling Sikh wrong, despite the name being in the thread title. You have far to go here, Jacob.

 

[unmerged(804237)]

+1

Also, much respect for spelling Sikh wrong, despite the name being in the thread title. You have far to go here, Jacob.

So, now you have to correct typos, as well?

 

[TankRush]

I never said that Columbus proved the world round. All I'm saying is that trying to undermine The Western Man is what's wrong with society today. The PC Police want to make us have Women and Ethnics as equal, despite unequal abilities. Aztecia was conquered by just 200 Spanish Men. Clearly, they did not and do not have the same abilities, and this gives us the right as prize to not bother giving them a religion other than "Pagan," just as how the Western Man conquering Punjabia gives us the right to not give them their own religion in the game; the spoils of war, one might say. Stop feeling White Man's guilt!

God save us from the likes of you, who truly believes that the Aztecs and other "ethnics" must be vastly mentally inferior to the white man. And who glorifies conquest and oppression.

I bet you feel proud about slavery too.

And don't worry, a lot of Americans don't know who Sikhs are, you'll occasionally hear about them from time to time, murdering them to "get justice for 9/11", or commiting other baseless acts of hate and violence.

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your white heritage... it's just that you're proud of all the horrifically shitty parts.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

I really hope this thread doesn't get locked... Though, I suppose, even if it does, we could make new religious threads. It's pretty-commonly agreed that religion is one of the more lacking areas of the game, currently:

• Heresies themselves are aimless, with no wargoal. Unable to convert provinces or states, they instead really serve to lower stability and raise revolt risk. Heresies should have a goal (Hussite rebellions could force the nation to become reformed/protestant, puritans would lower religious tolerance of heretics and infidels.)
• Sikhism, Miaphysitism and Ibadiism are nonexistant (at least Miaphysitism and Ibadiism aren't heresies, I believe, as odd situations would come of that.) Crusader Kings 2 has both included in the game, meaning this would especially be beneficial for the save converter.
• There tends to be no reason not to convert provinces, as this gives a straight up bonus, which tends to be the most effective way of dealing with things. As such, despite the Ottoman Tolerance modifier, the Balkans tend to become Sunni very often. In fact, converting a province should often lower the amount of tax gained rather than raise it, due to the religious groups themselves fleeing the province. This gives a trade off to the stability of the province.
• The "Pagan" religion acts as one huge religion, divided into two main heresies. This both gives great relationships with unrelated nations, as well as greatly discouraging gameplay of such nations, due to their vast blandness. Ryuchu's religion should be in the same group as Shinto, and the Mande faith should differentiate from the Nahua faith.

 

[Phibs]

Agree with everything you say pte.

Sadly, I think this will be dlc material.
Note that I don't demand free stuff or anything.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Miaphysitism certainly shouldn't be a heresy; if anything it's the 'original' form of Christianity from several theological points, AFAIK.