Sikhism = Heresy?

[Hyzhenhok]

Any reason for that?
I mean: If it can never get a majority in any province than it cannot exist as a religion in the game. It will instantly vaporise. Or am I wrong?

Just to give it some flavor and to avoid the ahistoricity of Sikhism becoming a majority religion...anywhere.

If it wouldn't work now because of the way mechanics work, they can always change it or make an exception. That's just how they'll be able to sell it as fancy-schmancy DLC above and beyond what any mod could give you.

 

[Sky_walker]

Just to give it some flavor and to avoid the ahistoricity of Sikhism becoming a majority religion...anywhere.

Out of pure curiosity - was it always like that? 30 seconds google search says that they are a majority in Punjab right now. Wikipedia says that Sikh Empire got majority of it's population Muslim, though it was quite a big one, so no wonder. How about Misl though - aka. Sikh Confederacy? Didn't it have a Sikh majority?

 

[Fishman786]

Out of pure curiosity - was it always like that? 30 seconds google search says that they are a majority in Punjab right now. Wikipedia says that Sikh Empire got majority of it's population Muslim, though it was quite a big one, so no wonder. How about Misl though - aka. Sikh Confederacy? Didn't it have a Sikh majority?

Sikhs are only the majority in East Punjab. In 1947 Punjab was divided between India and Pakistan, and most of the Sikh homelands went to Pakistan. During the botched partition there was a massive genocide in which Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus butchered each other mercilessly, and people fled until they were on the 'right' side of the border. Then in the '60s East Punjab was partitioned again to create a Sikh majority province. This was also botched, the idea was to create a Punjabi linguistic state but extremists on both sides pushed for different religions to use different languages. Eventually the tension following this lead to the chaos of the 1980s.

Before 1947 Sikhs were never a majority in any EUIV province area.

 

[Sky_walker]

Before 1947 Sikhs were never a majority in any EUIV province area.

Oh, ok... well... than it creates a huge challenge in implementing it as a religion in EUIV.
As far as I'm aware religion in EUIV can exist only if there are any provinces with it. So theoretical Sikh Empire with Sikhism as a state religion would quickly have religious rebellions popping up and turning country into Sunni (?) erasing the whole effort put in creating it.

Not to mention that it would be quite troublesome in scenarios like for example player choosing Religious national idea. What than?

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Basically, anywhere outside of Europe is terribly represented, although I accept that some effort has been put into some of the East Asian states. There aren't enough American or African states to make those areas really worth playing in without a mod, no matter how interesting and challenging some of them ought to be. For example, whilst it'd be great to play a game as Ethiopia or Mali/Songhai, most of their neighbors are inexplicably missing. Whole chunks of the map are blank when they really have no business being so.

As for Sikhism, naturally I completely agree. They could have added Oriental Orthodoxy and perhaps a few more Eastern religions as well (Jainism would present an interesting underdog challenge) but I suppose we'll have to wait for DLC packs to flesh out those areas.

I'm not adverse to modding certain areas of the game myself, but sadly I do not have the graphical ability to create religious symbols that would match the vanilla ones.

It would have been nice if a few extra religions (with the relevant GFX) had been added for modders to use, but left out of the game by default. Perhaps in a patch? (Like they did with Enatic succession).

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Oh, ok... well... than it creates a huge challenge in implementing it as a religion in EUIV.
As far as I'm aware religion in EUIV can exist only if there are any provinces with it. So theoretical Sikh Empire with Sikhism as a state religion would quickly have religious rebellions popping up and turning country into Sunni (?) erasing the whole effort put in creating it.

Strange, such things never happened with playing as a Muslim nation in India (which usually consist completely of Hindu provinces.) Although, I am only remembering from EU3, it possibly may have been changed in EUIV. The point is, playing as a nation made off of wrong-religion provinces, it doesn't exactly make the game anywhere near as difficult as you imply.

European examples (forumites often ask for examples of European nations instead of the "ROTW" nations) would probably include the Knights Hospitaller, Naxos, and a few others, which I cannot currently recall. These are, of course, heretic provinces, but they are the only European examples I can currently recall.

 

[Sky_walker]

Strange, such things never happened with playing as a Muslim nation in India (which usually consist completely of Hindu provinces.) Although, I am only remembering from EU3, it possibly may have been changed in EUIV. The point is, playing as a nation made off of wrong-religion provinces, it doesn't exactly make the game anywhere near as difficult as you imply.

European examples (forumites often ask for examples of European nations instead of the "ROTW" nations) would probably include the Knights Hospitaller, Naxos, and a few others, which I cannot currently recall. These are, of course, heretic provinces, but they are the only European examples I can currently recall.

Erm.. I would suggest talking about EU4 in EU4 forum.

Knights got this problem too - either their state religion gets converted to Orthodox church, or rebels force integration with Byzantium (but nationalistic rebellions are different issue - where poor Knights with 10k army get swarmed by 60k Byzantium nationalists - lol)

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Erm.. I would suggest talking about EU4 in EU4 forum.

Knights got this problem too - either their state religion gets converted to Orthodox church, or rebels force integration with Byzantium (but nationalistic rebellions are different issue - where poor Knights with 10k army get swarmed by 60k Byzantium nationalists - lol)

Having now played a game as a Muslim Indian state, gameplay doesn't seem to be made so much harder by the fact. That is not to say that such gameplay is easy, but I have never been swarmed by absurd amounts of enemies, like the one in your example. It is still far easier than playing an African and American nation, for example.

In any case, your argument that Punjab would be unplayable due to half or all of the provinces being infidels is rather unfounded, due to the fact that there are already many instances of states ruled by different religious groups, and are already represented in the game as such. Just look at any Muslim Indian state in the first start date.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Noticed that Sikhism is now a heresy of both Sunniism and Hinduism now. I guess this is preferable to the original situation, where one would only deal with them rebelling when playing as a Sunni nation. I do have to mention the amusing oddity, though, of having Sikh heretics rebel while playing as Punjab.

I suppose a religion DLC would be good to see, however, given that religious groups have unchanged completely since EU3, and Europa Universalis is by far lacking behind Crusader Kings and Victoria in the religion department. We do, in addition to Sikhism, lack Ibadiism (Oman), and Miaphysitism (Ethiopia.) Heretic rebellions additionally have no detail to them, and thus have no proper "succeeding" goal (no converting provinces, no changing state religion.) Buddhism still stands as a single group, Japan stands as being entirely Shintoist (with no special mechanics for Buddhists, instead the biggest religious group the Shogunate seems to fear is Catholics.) The "Pagan" religious group seems to be the least detailed, The Aztecs, Mutapa, and Ryuku all having the exact same religion, having good relations, and getting relationship bonuses with these nations each would never dream existed, the religions not being based upon region.

 

[Crispin]

It's actually amazing, absolutely astonishing that the religion seems to be nearly identical to eu 3. I do enjoy the game a lot no doubt, but how is this possible? Its a joke, and let's be honest, at first glance it seems unbelievably lazy - and I'm very surprised it have not been more of an out cry about this.

 

[unmerged(804237)]

I don't think many people know or care who Sikhs are. Paradox don't have to server every whim of every new agey religion. And that's why I love Paradox, and its forums (for the most part) We don't like that revisionist history crap. We don't care about equal representation feminazi man-hating bull. Paradox, its moderators (some may claim to be communists, but I suspect it may just be a joke on their part, as socially they do seem to oppose feminists and racial radicalists, even if they do seem to view gays as better than straights), and its forumites (even if there are some crazy sjw types who come to troll.)

Seriously, we need more DHEs (especially for England, which does seem lacking in that area.) Not this. I'd also like to see improved naval combat, and perhaps a timeline extension to about 1850 (the American Dream DLC is a bit annoying with so little time to play it in.) Some more detail to the Holy Roman Empire would be nice, as well.

 

[Sovetskysoyuz]

I don't think many people know or care who Sikhs are.

new agey religion

You're going to have to include yourself in that category, then.

We don't care about equal representation feminazi man-hating bullshit.

This is why I wish the forums had a "report post" button.

 

[unmerged(804237)]

You're going to have to include yourself in that category, then.

I've just been explaining why we shouldn't include Sihks. How am I new-agey? I think you've misread my post...

This is why I wish the forums had a "report post" button.

There, removed the curse. You should probably fix your quote, too.

 

[Dafool]

I don't think many people know or care who Sikhs are. Paradox don't have to server every whim of every new agey religion. And that's why I love Paradox, and its forums (for the most part) We don't like that revisionist history crap. We don't care about equal representation feminazi man-hating bull. Paradox, its moderators (some may claim to be communists, but I suspect it may just be a joke on their part, as socially they do seem to oppose feminists and racial radicalists, even if they do seem to view gays as better than straights), and its forumites (even if there are some crazy sjw types who come to troll.)

Seriously, we need more DHEs (especially for England, which does seem lacking in that area.) Not this. I'd also like to see improved naval combat, and perhaps a timeline extension to about 1850 (the American Dream DLC is a bit annoying with so little time to play it in.) Some more detail to the Holy Roman Empire would be nice, as well.

Sikhism can hardly be called a "New Age religion". It developed in the early 16th century. While it's probably true that most people can't tell you much about the Sikhs, many can also not tell you the difference between Sunnis and Shiites, why Catholic and Orthodox Christianity are split, or even what Shinto is. That doesn't mean those religions are "New Age". No offense, but a lack of knowledge on your part can hardly be called an affirmation of the forum's will. Almost every major mod for EU3 included the Sikhs and we've had numerous topics that have requested their inclusion. An extended timeline or more HRE content are probably pretty low on most people's priority list in comparison to improvements to religion.

 

[Sovetskysoyuz]

I've just been explaining why we shouldn't include Sihks. How am I new-agey? I think you've misread my post...



There, removed the curse. You should probably fix your quote, too.

No, the fact that you think Sikhs are "new-age" shows that you don't know anything about them (and are apparently proud of it).

 

[Sleight of Hand]

King_Jacob, carry on like that and you're going to be my favorite poster.

 

[Sun_Wu]

I don't think many people know or care who Sikhs are. Paradox don't have to server every whim of every new agey religion. And that's why I love Paradox, and its forums (for the most part) We don't like that revisionist history crap. We don't care about equal representation feminazi man-hating bull. Paradox, its moderators (some may claim to be communists, but I suspect it may just be a joke on their part, as socially they do seem to oppose feminists and racial radicalists, even if they do seem to view gays as better than straights), and its forumites (even if there are some crazy sjw types who come to troll.)

Seriously, we need more DHEs (especially for England, which does seem lacking in that area.) Not this. I'd also like to see improved naval combat, and perhaps a timeline extension to about 1850 (the American Dream DLC is a bit annoying with so little time to play it in.) Some more detail to the Holy Roman Empire would be nice, as well.

I have a feeling that more people could tell me vaguely what a Sikh is than who the first President of the Continental Congress was.

 

[Fishman786]

I don't think many people know or care who Sikhs are. Paradox don't have to server every whim of every new agey religion. And that's why I love Paradox, and its forums (for the most part) We don't like that revisionist history crap. We don't care about equal representation feminazi man-hating bull. Paradox, its moderators (some may claim to be communists, but I suspect it may just be a joke on their part, as socially they do seem to oppose feminists and racial radicalists, even if they do seem to view gays as better than straights), and its forumites (even if there are some crazy sjw types who come to troll.)

Seriously, we need more DHEs (especially for England, which does seem lacking in that area.) Not this. I'd also like to see improved naval combat, and perhaps a timeline extension to about 1850 (the American Dream DLC is a bit annoying with so little time to play it in.) Some more detail to the Holy Roman Empire would be nice, as well.

People who know or care who Sikhs are:
- More or less the entire populations of India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Malaysia
- Most of Britain and Canada
- Large numbers of Americans (there are even whole towns and communities of Sikhs in new Mexico)
- Plenty of Australians, Georgians, Italians, New Zealanders, Gulf Arabs, Sri Lankans, East Africans
- The UN
- The EU
- The British Army
- The Indian Army
- The US Army
- Every single faith-related organisation
- Paradox Interactive
- Sid Meier
- Barrack Obama
- The War Nerd (At least one article about Sikh military history)
- Badass of the Week (multiple articles about Sikhism)
- Richard Dawkins
- David Cameron
- And of course everyone else who has basic general knowledge

People who outright refuse to know or care who Sikhs are:
- King_Jacob
- ???

 

[Tufto]

I don't think many people know or care who Sikhs are. Paradox don't have to server every whim of every new agey religion. And that's why I love Paradox, and its forums (for the most part) We don't like that revisionist history crap. We don't care about equal representation feminazi man-hating bull. Paradox, its moderators (some may claim to be communists, but I suspect it may just be a joke on their part, as socially they do seem to oppose feminists and racial radicalists, even if they do seem to view gays as better than straights), and its forumites (even if there are some crazy sjw types who come to troll.)

Seriously, we need more DHEs (especially for England, which does seem lacking in that area.) Not this. I'd also like to see improved naval combat, and perhaps a timeline extension to about 1850 (the American Dream DLC is a bit annoying with so little time to play it in.) Some more detail to the Holy Roman Empire would be nice, as well.

Oh wow, some genuinely backward views. Those are so lacking around here. We're mostly all equal representation feminazi man-haters, you see. Have you even looked at these forums? Pretty much nobody around here is anti-revisionist. Most people are socially progressive and/or left-wing.

Sikhism is a world religion, an old world religion, a fairly damn important world religion, historically as well as presently, and your ignorance is a vice, not a virtue. I mean, learning about Sikhism was basic stuff tauught in RE lessons when I was about 8...

 

[James The 1st]

Fishman has a good point. I'm pretty sure religion will get expansion treatment in the future though.

Sadly religion hasn't changed much. The groupings are still odd, some religions are still missing, and some of the religious representation is fictional. Given how often these issues were brought up and modded in EU3, I'm a little surprised that the devs chose to copy and paste everything over to EU4 without any improvements. I'm sure someone is going to suggest that PDS can fix this with DLC or that modders can take care of it, but personally I don't think it's a good policy to put basic historical representation on the back burner.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. I think the reason Paradox took all the EU3 stuff is so they don't have to make everything from scratch again. (like EU3 was at the start) Now that the base is pretty solid, they can really start expanding things like this.