Just in case you missed it, here is how I rewrote Austria inherits Styria events to enable Styria to become Austria.
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Sorry to go back to something that was way in the beginning of the topic, but if you are going to model the 1418-19 war between Hungary and the Ottomans, a good way of modelling Sigismund's request for help to the Teutonic Order would be to have an event describing the situation that grants say.. 5,000 men to Hungary. And maybe an event that grants the Teutonic Order a small amount of ducats -- unless they historically volunteered to go for free.
Svantevid said:
Hadn't seen them yet
o The event chain will however have do be done slightly differently if the conflict between Friedrich V and Albrecht VI is implemented according to what I've proposed. In fact, I've reserved tonight for writing up something
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We obviously cannot take Istria from Venice, it needs the province badly. The only workable way to implement Cilli would be on the new map if a Carintia province is added so Styria starts with Styria, Carinthia and Carniola. Even then, an independent Cilli in Carniola would mean quite an inaccuracy since they never became Dukes of Carniola or owned the capital of Carniola, Laibach; Cilli would only really fit into a separate Cilli province, and I'd be opposed to implementing a province that would be useful for 20 years and quite useless for the rest of the EU2 period.
So, sorry to say, but although I have lobbied for including Cilli in the past, I'm now inclined towards not having it as a country and only representing the Counts of Cilli in Styrian, Austrian and Hungarian events.
If one additional tag can be used in the area, I'd very much favour giving it Slovakia because of its double purpose - representing both Jan Jiskra and Imre Thököly, who could both spice up things quite a lot.
So, sorry to say, but although I have lobbied for including Cilli in the past, I'm now inclined towards not having it as a country and only representing the Counts of Cilli in Styrian, Austrian and Hungarian events.
If one additional tag can be used in the area, I'd very much favour giving it Slovakia because of its double purpose - representing both Jan Jiskra and Imre Thököly, who could both spice up things quite a lot.
Twoflower said:
according to this map and others that i have seen for the same period, cilli is east of styria. if it is to be included in the current agceep map then it should go where ODENBURG is
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm
Cilli is in in the southern part of Styria. After WWI that part of Styria became part of the kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. To represent an exact historical Cilli would mean splitting the province of Steiermark in two, Upper and Lower Steiermark. That might be useful not only for Cilli, but also for the reign of Korvinus. But not later.
So to represent Cilli on the current map, and it appears the new one would be no approvement in that regard, either province of Krain or Steiermark would have to be used. True, they were never dukes of Krain, but they held large estates in Carniola and Carinthia (IIRC those around Spittal were actually part of their princedom, while those in Carniola were not). While the existence of Cilli was brief, its impact much surpassed the boundaries of its territory - Ulrich, taking care of Ladislaus was practically regent of Hungary, at least in name, and if Tvrtko's wishes were regarded, Cilli would have inherited Bosnia - so being represented by rebels is inadequate, to say the least. And, as I said, its tag could be reused later for Napolen's Illyric provinces.
I quite agree Slovakia should have a tag.
As for the province of Istria, I shouldn't think it represents only the peninsula (of wich two thirds were Venetian, and one third Habsburg), but also the lands around Trieste, and maybe even more. My point being that applying history to it, it would show a roughly 50:50 division between Venice and Habsburg, and it's wrong to say that the province of Istria must belong to Venice for historical reasons. That it's needed for gameplay reasons is a much more valid argument for me, although I can't judge how correct it is, not being aware of any tests made to support it.
So to represent Cilli on the current map, and it appears the new one would be no approvement in that regard, either province of Krain or Steiermark would have to be used. True, they were never dukes of Krain, but they held large estates in Carniola and Carinthia (IIRC those around Spittal were actually part of their princedom, while those in Carniola were not). While the existence of Cilli was brief, its impact much surpassed the boundaries of its territory - Ulrich, taking care of Ladislaus was practically regent of Hungary, at least in name, and if Tvrtko's wishes were regarded, Cilli would have inherited Bosnia - so being represented by rebels is inadequate, to say the least. And, as I said, its tag could be reused later for Napolen's Illyric provinces.
I quite agree Slovakia should have a tag.
As for the province of Istria, I shouldn't think it represents only the peninsula (of wich two thirds were Venetian, and one third Habsburg), but also the lands around Trieste, and maybe even more. My point being that applying history to it, it would show a roughly 50:50 division between Venice and Habsburg, and it's wrong to say that the province of Istria must belong to Venice for historical reasons. That it's needed for gameplay reasons is a much more valid argument for me, although I can't judge how correct it is, not being aware of any tests made to support it.
Svantevid said:
You forgot to take in consideration the migration of people. You are incorrect in that the slovenes at around 1400 were south of stryia but east of styria.
The slovenians move to were they are now dure to the fact that the serbs moved northward to get away from the advancing turks.
cilli and I will state again is east of stryia like the enclosed map i sent. As well as every other map i recently viewed.
Its like, if EU2 was set in the 650 Ads then we would place the croats and serbs in southern poland and not were they are in 2005.
Toio said:
What you say is completely and utterly wrong and I suggest you consult some history books before we continue this discussion. As for geography, Cilli is a german name for the roman city Celeia, called Celje in slovene. The city hasn't been moving around.
Svantevid said:
Are you saying that the map I submitted is wrong ??
does it show cilli east of styria . yes or no?
I see no proof that it was south of styria, and i have consulted many books and the internet.
besides cilli had no connection to the sea. (I put this in so u can comment on this)
even if cilli had its own tag in the new HC map, I would OPPOSE the position of cilli if it was south.
show me the proof.
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Toio said:
Don't know which map you're talking about, but Cilli isn't east of Styria, period. It's east of Krain.
Toio, you seem not to understand what Cilli actually was - lands of a noble familly of HRE that was elevated to the rank of princes. They made the city of Cilli their seat and were thus named after it. And Cilli isn't south of Styria but in southern Styria. Cillis had many lands outside Styria as well, in Carianthia, Carniola, Hungary and Croatia, and that is what the map tries to show, inaccurately, by force, because it is too small to show detail. But the main poin is, Cilli didn't have the time to become a 'compact' state, in the sense we understand in our times. So, if you really want a yes/no answer to your question, then yes, the map is wrong. And Cilli most certainly wasn't a slovene state, although it is quite probable that Cillis, like other feudal lords of the area, Habsburgs including, spoke slovenian, as it was the language of their subjects.
That is why I urge you to read more on when and how slovenes came to this lands. What you wrote really pains me, since it could only be considered as italian faschist propaganda.
That is why I urge you to read more on when and how slovenes came to this lands. What you wrote really pains me, since it could only be considered as italian faschist propaganda.
Toio said:
If anything, it is South of Styria in this map, however, the city itself has always been in Untersteiermark.
I have a few maps at home, but unfortunately my camera is broken, so I can't take any photos of them...
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celje :
"Celje (German Cilli, Hungarian Cille) (46.24° North, 15.27° East (WG), 241 m, mean height above sea level (MSL) 304 m) is the third largest city in Slovenia. It is a regional center of the Southwestern Lower Styria (Jugozahodna Spodnja Štajerska) and the administrative seat of the municipality of the same name. It is located under the Upper Celje Castle (407 m) at the confluence of the rivers Savinja (also in some older English texts Sann), Ložnica and Voglajna (with its tributary Hudinja) in the lowest part of the Savinja valley."
And then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria_(province)
"Styria (Štajerska in Slovenian) is an informal province (pokrajina) in northeast Slovenia, known for its white wine.
Major centres include Maribor, Celje and Ptuj. It is also called Lower Styria, or Spodnja Štajerska (German Untersteiermark), as opposed to Upper Styria, a term applied to the federal state of Austria by Slovenians. (In Austria, the term Upper Styria (Obersteiermark) is applied only the northern parts of that state.) This reflects the division of Styria in 1918, when Austria-Hungary was dissolved."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria :
"The southern parts of the Duchy of Styria, which since 1918 are part of Slovenia, were (and sometimes colloquially still are) refered to as Untersteiermark ("Lower Styria")."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria_(duchy) :
"Following World War I, Styria was divided in the Treaty of Saint Germain. Lower Styria with the cities of Celje and Maribor became part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, while the rest remained with Austria as the State of Styria. Other than in Carinthia, no fighting resulted from this, in spite of minority populations on both sides (the larger cities of Lower Styria were largely German-speaking)."
Will this do?
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celje :
"Celje (German Cilli, Hungarian Cille) (46.24° North, 15.27° East (WG), 241 m, mean height above sea level (MSL) 304 m) is the third largest city in Slovenia. It is a regional center of the Southwestern Lower Styria (Jugozahodna Spodnja Štajerska) and the administrative seat of the municipality of the same name. It is located under the Upper Celje Castle (407 m) at the confluence of the rivers Savinja (also in some older English texts Sann), Ložnica and Voglajna (with its tributary Hudinja) in the lowest part of the Savinja valley."
And then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria_(province)
"Styria (Štajerska in Slovenian) is an informal province (pokrajina) in northeast Slovenia, known for its white wine.
Major centres include Maribor, Celje and Ptuj. It is also called Lower Styria, or Spodnja Štajerska (German Untersteiermark), as opposed to Upper Styria, a term applied to the federal state of Austria by Slovenians. (In Austria, the term Upper Styria (Obersteiermark) is applied only the northern parts of that state.) This reflects the division of Styria in 1918, when Austria-Hungary was dissolved."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria :
"The southern parts of the Duchy of Styria, which since 1918 are part of Slovenia, were (and sometimes colloquially still are) refered to as Untersteiermark ("Lower Styria")."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria_(duchy) :
"Following World War I, Styria was divided in the Treaty of Saint Germain. Lower Styria with the cities of Celje and Maribor became part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, while the rest remained with Austria as the State of Styria. Other than in Carinthia, no fighting resulted from this, in spite of minority populations on both sides (the larger cities of Lower Styria were largely German-speaking)."
Will this do?
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Wiking said:
2 of your sites do not work,
I am referring only to celli as I know where stryia is
Toio: post edited, all links should work now
And how can you say you know where Styria is, and at the same time say Cilli is not a part of it?
And how can you say you know where Styria is, and at the same time say Cilli is not a part of it?
To get back to original topic, what would choosing Albrecht over Friedrich bring to Tyrol or Austria? The following come to mind:
- worsening of relations with Styria
- get cores on Steiermark and Krain (for Tyrol, Austria already has them)
- gain CB against Styria, or even start a war, especially if no_concessions was chosen in the Styrian Treaty with Albrecht event.
- is there a way to break the alliance between Styria and Tyrol that might still remain from the start of scenario?
- offensive or quality +1, to indicate better military abilities of Albrecht
- worsening of relations with Styria
- get cores on Steiermark and Krain (for Tyrol, Austria already has them)
- gain CB against Styria, or even start a war, especially if no_concessions was chosen in the Styrian Treaty with Albrecht event.
- is there a way to break the alliance between Styria and Tyrol that might still remain from the start of scenario?
- offensive or quality +1, to indicate better military abilities of Albrecht