sigh* Overlord

[YellowDrax]

Overlords have little to no control over their subjects. You can blow up three of their planets, and force them to be your vassal, and they can just deny all your proposals. It's been mentioned a lot already but...why?

Fiefdom origin is pointless. Your overlord collapses in about fifty years. It kinda defeats the whole purpose of the origin. I WANT to have to wait and rebel against my stronger overlord when the time is right. Not have them collapse... I feel like the reason why this is the case is because this expansion is completely unfinished and rushed out the gate. Without a properly break away from your Overlord in a satisfactory way, they just made it a guaranteed event. Why?

Planetary revolts peacefully happening and resulting in truces. It's been mentioned a lot already but...why? If you're some fanatic egalitarian empire then I guess that makes sense. But for more authoritarian, militaristic ones, I don't see how planets can leave peacefully. Let alone fabricate a ten year truce. With how easy they are to deal with (revolts) it's just an annoyance you have to be paying attention to.

Megastructures. I like the idea of the relay's, but otherwise I'm not too sure. Planetary Rings are pretty underwhelming. Just giving a planetary modifier to a production type is a bit lazy and uninteresting. I enjoy relays. That's one thing about the expansion I actually enjoy. But the catapult seems like it might be a bit much. Ignoring the hyperlanes/warp points shouldn't be a common thing. The jump drives in their current form, being short range and giving a combat penalty, are balanced quite well. I haven't experienced them much, but I feel their addition wasn't necessary.

And the Enclaves? They just don't really do anything. I guess I can buy some ships from the scavengers. Or get that shroud beacon from the shroud walkers. But they're not very exciting.

So, basically, with this €20 expansion + update. The addition I'm most happy for is the extra colours and the origins. It's hard not to be annoyed/frustrated. Apocalypse gave us planet destroyers. Nemesis (while disappointing) could at least give an interesting game playing as the crisis. But I feel like there's nothing with Overlord. It's so empty, and unfinished. This is honestly going to be the expansion that stops me buying day one. I usually don't mind buying them because, even if the new mechanics suck, at least there's some interesting content. But I don't even feel like Overlord gave us that. The Aquatic species pack gave plenty of things to play around with. Overlord only impacts the first few years of the game, as you experience each origin for the first time.

 

[Ir0nSlug]

I feel you. For the first time since I jumped in Stellaris (some time after Megacorp) I bought a DLC day one. I will never do it again. The strangest thing is that I mostly blame myself for such an obvious mistake, that's says a lot about the quality expected from Stellaris releases...

 

[Calvax]

Overlords have little to no control over their subjects. You can blow up three of their planets, and force them to be your vassal, and they can just deny all your proposals. It's been mentioned a lot already but...why?

It appears the calculation is bugged. A zero is missing in the code which causes vassals to react far more negatively than they should.

Fiefdom origin is pointless. Your overlord collapses in about fifty years. It kinda defeats the whole purpose of the origin. I WANT to have to wait and rebel against my stronger overlord when the time is right. Not have them collapse... I feel like the reason why this is the case is because this expansion is completely unfinished and rushed out the gate. Without a properly break away from your Overlord in a satisfactory way, they just made it a guaranteed event. Why?

According to a dev this was the intent the whole time. I was a bit surprised to read that because it seems a bizarre choice for an origin specifically designed to show off new mechanics. Luckily they aren't opposed to short term fixes that will let you play as a vassal longer, or longer term reworks.

Planetary revolts peacefully happening and resulting in truces. It's been mentioned a lot already but...why? If you're some fanatic egalitarian empire then I guess that makes sense. But for more authoritarian, militaristic ones, I don't see how planets can leave peacefully. Let alone fabricate a ten year truce. With how easy they are to deal with (revolts) it's just an annoyance you have to be paying attention to.

According to Eladrin on reddit this is working as intended. The situation is supposed to represent an insurgency that eventually defeats you. While I'm glad they're paying attention to revolts it definitely feels like it could do with a rework.

Megastructures. I like the idea of the relay's, but otherwise I'm not too sure. Planetary Rings are pretty underwhelming. Just giving a planetary modifier to a production type is a bit lazy and uninteresting. I enjoy relays. That's one thing about the expansion I actually enjoy. But the catapult seems like it might be a bit much. Ignoring the hyperlanes/warp points shouldn't be a common thing. The jump drives in their current form, being short range and giving a combat penalty, are balanced quite well. I haven't experienced them much, but I feel their addition wasn't necessary.

Relays are very cool. They add an element of mid-tier infrastructure that was lacking, and provide a unique ability. Plus who doesn't like making train routes. The rings are fun, they weren't advertised to be revolutionary. I do wish they didn't seem so obvious to build around every world.

And the Enclaves? They just don't really do anything. I guess I can buy some ships from the scavengers. Or get that shroud beacon from the shroud walkers. But they're not very exciting.

Mercenary enclaves are great. The shroudwalkers bugged out on me with none of my ships able to use the shroud tunnel (despite me owning both systems).

 

[shivan]

Ive been a pdx fan since HOI2. They make great games but its often a shit show when a new release comes out.

I feel you. For the first time since I jumped in Stellaris (some time after Megacorp) I bought a DLC day one. I will never do it again. The strangest thing is that I mostly blame myself for such an obvious mistake, that's says a lot about the quality expected from Stellaris releases...

 

[MatthewP]

Ive been a pdx fan since HOI2. They make great games but its often a shit show when a new release comes out.

View attachment 839264

Yep. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the heck out of all you unofficial beta testers playing new patches on day one, but you gotta know what you’re getting into.

 

[YellowDrax]

It appears the calculation is bugged. A zero is missing in the code which causes vassals to react far more negatively than they should.

I think, even with the bug fixed, it still won't fix the mechanics of the vassalage system. Trust is a system that doesn't make much sense for the more authoritative/harsh overlords. I know saying "It should be like this..." is a bit juvenile, but for an expansion called 'Overlord', a very egalitarian style of vassalage system seems out of place. A better system, in my opinion, be to have two different types of vassals. One that is ruled through diplomacy, agreements and trust. Another that is ordered and governed through fear. To suit the two very different styles of empires. Even with the bug fixed, I'm assuming they can still just refuse an Overlord's demands from them, and the Overlord can do nothing about it. Again, for certain empires, it makes sense. But not for others...it will always be infuriating as Stellaris is a roleplay heavy strategy game and this kinda ruins the 'idea' of half the empires you make.

A subservient puppet that is forced to do what the Overlord says for its own survival should not be able to resist the Overlord without repercussions. HOWEVER, I'm not arguing for an overpowered system of net benefit. As an Overlord, you should be careful in demanding too much from a puppet, with it suffering harsh stability drops, enemy fleets spawning, and with it even fracturing into separate empires if your demands are too much for them. I also think it should be able to straight up become independent (with a wargoal against them) if an empire that is at least inferior to you, supports them (with a planetary rebellion-esque event but FAR longer and harder to deal with). So even a despot should have to think about how to handle a puppet, rather than just taking all their resources.

Otherwise I agree with pretty much everything you said. But, I have to put forward that, for the price, I'm not really happy with what we got. I mean, if the main part of the €20 expansion, the vassalage system, is broken on release? There's just no hiding the fact this was rushed out the door for money. I can buy a full AA game for €20. But they're asking us to pay the same for an expansion that's only real addition is broken upon release. Complaints against PDX's treatment of expansions is nothing new. But I could always justify it because, even if they didn't add much, for the hundreds of hours I get from their games, I still felt it was worth it. But the three most notable aspects of Overlord in my new playthrough were: Do NOT vassal anything. Relays are cool. Remember to spam strongholds on rebellious planets. Otherwise it was a standard playthrough.

 

[OnyxAbussos]

[[Edit: To ME, this is a very meaningful compliment. From my own experience of the work it took for comparable changes in myself, the kind of shift I describe here is one of the deepest kinds of growth / transformation there is. Tone = genuine, in case the interwebs make it sound otherwise.]]

This is the first time since Megacorp that I've felt like they released a bag of bugs, so it kinda came as a shock for me.

That said, Megacorp was a THOUSAND times worse. Like this feels like a 4/10 broken, with Megacorp being about a 50/10.

So while I wouldve preferred it to be less broke on release, I'm at least happy to see how much more functional this "disaster" is than the previous disaster. What I mean is that like... ok, so everyone messes up sometimes. But what counts as a mess up NOW is so much better than what used to count as a mess up. Right? Terrible used to mean genocide. Now terrible means they took a dump on the carpet. That's cool.

 

[devfrost44]

I think, even with the bug fixed, it still won't fix the mechanics of the vassalage system. Trust is a system that doesn't make much sense for the more authoritative/harsh overlords. I know saying "It should be like this..." is a bit juvenile, but for an expansion called 'Overlord', a very egalitarian style of vassalage system seems out of place. A better system, in my opinion, be to have two different types of vassals. One that is ruled through diplomacy, agreements and trust. Another that is ordered and governed through fear. To suit the two very different styles of empires. Even with the bug fixed, I'm assuming they can still just refuse an Overlord's demands from them, and the Overlord can do nothing about it. Again, for certain empires, it makes sense. But not for others...it will always be infuriating as Stellaris is a roleplay heavy strategy game and this kinda ruins the 'idea' of half the empires you make.

A subservient puppet that is forced to do what the Overlord says for its own survival should not be able to resist the Overlord without repercussions. HOWEVER, I'm not arguing for an overpowered system of net benefit. As an Overlord, you should be careful in demanding too much from a puppet, with it suffering harsh stability drops, enemy fleets spawning, and with it even fracturing into separate empires if your demands are too much for them. I also think it should be able to straight up become independent (with a wargoal against them) if an empire that is at least inferior to you, supports them (with a planetary rebellion-esque event but FAR longer and harder to deal with). So even a despot should have to think about how to handle a puppet, rather than just taking all their resources.

Otherwise I agree with pretty much everything you said. But, I have to put forward that, for the price, I'm not really happy with what we got. I mean, if the main part of the €20 expansion, the vassalage system, is broken on release? There's just no hiding the fact this was rushed out the door for money. I can buy a full AA game for €20. But they're asking us to pay the same for an expansion that's only real addition is broken upon release. Complaints against PDX's treatment of expansions is nothing new. But I could always justify it because, even if they didn't add much, for the hundreds of hours I get from their games, I still felt it was worth it. But the three most notable aspects of Overlord in my new playthrough were: Do NOT vassal anything. Relays are cool. Remember to spam strongholds on rebellious planets. Otherwise it was a standard playthrough.

Adding the zero to the resource modifier do somewhat make the vassal negotiation a lot more enjoyable and balanced. The negative modifier of demanding resources can be offset by giving them other type of resources.

That said, the system currently seems to only allow you to demand one type of resources without giving back anything in return. The reason is because the superior power + modifier is cap at +500, which just happen to negate the -500 of demanding resources. Note that the -500 modifier doesn't scale up when you increase the demand (it does decrease loyalty tick). So the system seems to only want you to only demand one single type of resource and if you want more, you need to give back something.

Funnily, by restoring the positive modifier to 500, I can now peacefully vassalize empire with the distant penalty (-500) and the in the federation (-1000)

This is the result of my end game playthrough using feudal civic empire. I do my expansion solely with vassalization and I have beaten the contigency. The game is at captain difficulty.

I got most of my raw income from my vassal. I have a total of 16 vassal. One is Prostectium and one is Scholarium. For some of the vassal, I traded a bit of my research for their resources as well (mainly to get them out of protectorate status fast). I honestly could have squeezed more out of the vassal by turning more to Scholarium and prospectium but at this point, I was capping my resources anyway.

My own territory is small with only 549 pops spread over 10 planets. I used remnant origin and so I was funneling everything to an Ecumenopolis that produced the majority of my alloys and consumer goods.

Also, toggling the take point on your fleet seems to summon all of the loyal vassal fleet to it even when at peace (not sure if it is default coding or because there's a crisis going on)

Using vassalization is definitely viable gameplay and the difference of enjoyment before and after I added the zero is enormous.

Edit: Also since in federation is at -1000, I was able to make a Hegemon federation with an Empire and then paid it with 15% research and 15% base materials to vassalize it. Then after 5 years, I just negotiate out of the payment. Hence all 16 vassals are in a Hegemon Federation with me.