Sicily, Genoa and Savoy and the Straits of Gibraltar

[TheArchduke]

Apart from the feeling that I am talking to myself in some threads.

How efficient could Granada close Gibraltar or/and impose taxes?

Especially important for those powers, or would you say the Strait is big enough to allow for everyone to go through?

 

[ForzaA]

I think it's only a few kilometers wide.. I think it's easier to close than the sund, less so than the bosporus.

From my way undetailed map; about 15km wide.

and with sufficient investment / naval cappacity they would surely be able to close it off/ toll it effectively.

I'm also considering connecting Gibraltar-Tangiers, to make Marocco-Granada more of a logical struggle (mp, tax modifier issues)

 

[TheArchduke]

Well, especially any overseas expeditions must be made through Gibraltar, thinking of it, no Med power made it into a big colonial power. At least tolls or taxes will be introduced imo.

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Genoa was a large trading power *in the Atlantic* during the pre-game period, though, historically; Columbus is thought to have travelled as far as Iceland. So I think it's certainly possible that if they were in a position to finance the expeditions, and the Italian explorer guys had not hired themselves out to the four main Western European powers (which in Aberration do not exist), Genoa could have become a colonial power.

As far as the physical size of the strait, it is about one-third to half the width of the narrowest portion of the English Channel - narrow enough that one shore can be seen from the other, but wide enough that it could not be closed by the placement of fortresses on either side and creating a cannon crossfire (at least not until post-Napoleonic times).

I don't believe there is a game-mechanics way to close the strait completely, anyway; they could certainly have a fleet based there, but it would only stop another country's ships if they are at war. Is there a way to encourage the AI to so place its ships, though? That might be realistic...

Imposing tolls however - possibly in the form of creating a COT, boosting local tax base values, or both - seems rather do-able and reasonable.

 

[TheArchduke]

Ok, will prolly use the same muster as Skane then, if Granada is too greedy, Savoy, Sicily and Genoa might get a cb on Tangiers.

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Why Tangiers and not Gibraltar? Or both? (I believe both have good, protected natural harbors).

 

[Nikolai II]

Sunds longest distance coast to coast - 10km

Gibraltar shortest distance coast to coast- 15 km - 50% more

But more importantly - gibraltar is easily navigable and not too long, the sunds are long, narrow and treacherous. (My point being, Gibraltar can be passed/snuck by during a few hours, while the sunds need to be negotiated during more than a day)

Still, event for trying might be fun - just don't be inspired by the sunds event for it

 

[TheArchduke]

Ok, point taken, Gibraltar is not a real problem for other nations to cross apart. So no hampering of colonization/trade..

 

[Nikolai II]

Ok, point taken, Gibraltar is not a real problem for other nations to cross apart. So no hampering of colonization/trade..

Well.. some maybe.. but more expensive for less result.. it's just that historically the long narrow gaps (Bosporus and the Sound) did get closed, but even Spain at it's top didn't manage to close Gibraltar.. but to make an event for the province gibraltar that triggers if owner has naval tech 26 and allows building of 'fortress gibraltar' for 1000 cash getting +1 fortlevel and +2000trade..that could be ok..? Maybe naval 41 would be better? (Then cost 2000, trade 4000 and taxes +2, fort +1)

Or just spend your time at other matters

 

[TheArchduke]

The level sounds like an idea, and definetly a thing that could escalate into a big med conflict..

 

[Medicine Man]

Check event 200546 in major_gra.txt, an event that I'm going to rename "the Pillars of Hercules" (another name for the two sides of the straight).

You've already seen this event and accepted it, as far as I know, Archduke.

 

[TheArchduke]

Check event 200546 in major_gra.txt, an event that I'm going to rename "the Pillars of Hercules" (another name for the two sides of the straight).

You've already seen this event and accepted it, as far as I know, Archduke.

Yep a nice one and not overrpowered, but plz add three reactions to it for Savoy, Genoa and Sicily, thanks.

 

[Avernite]

Savoy should have different effects if they take part of the French western coast, as they then have ports on the 'safe' side of Gibraltar. At least, that seems logical..

 

[TheArchduke]

Hmm, the west coast is a big Bretonic cb, but you´re right, thanks.

 

[Medicine Man]

Yep a nice one and not overrpowered, but plz add three reactions to it for Savoy, Genoa and Sicily, thanks.

I'm going to re-tool the Pillars of Hercules event a little bit. There probably will be a substantual tax value boost on both provinces, and there will be reaction events for Savoy, Genoa and Sicily (as per your request).

I think it would be possible to do a variation of the Sund due with the Straights of Gibralter, but it would require alot more naval power, so I'll try to make the event reflect this.

 

[Nikolai II]

I think it would be possible to do a variation of the Sund due with the Straights of Gibralter, but it would require alot more naval power, so I'll try to make the event reflect this.

When the british took Gibraltar, why didn't they ask for taxes?

 

[unmerged(1047)]

They never controlled both sides of the strait, and so they couldn't choke it off completely (as Denmark and Turkey could).

 

[Nikolai II]

They never controlled both sides of the strait, and so they couldn't choke it off completely (as Denmark and Turkey could).

Erm - when they took it they had like naval tech 55-60, no need for choking for blocking - if Gibraltar would be blockable.

And to collect taxes you have to physically intercept/stop every ship that passes by, easy to do when you can have time to react and send out a ship (as Denmark and Turkey could) but not easy when it takes you as long to reach the passing ship as it takes for the passing ship to clear the passage and exit beyond..

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Yes, that's also true - it's a relatively short passage.

The state of facts is that there is no game mechanic to close the straits anyhow, except when in state of war and an enemy fleet is already present. (Though if we can somehow encourage the AI to do that, we probably should.)

I believe, though, that in the absence of other COTs in the area, a Gibraltar COT would make sense under certain circumstances - if Granada were to invoke a law similar to the Japanese policy of reqiring foreign traders to trade only at certain ports, for example. Cadiz-Gibraltar would make a very suitable port for that purpose. That would be the most likely reasoning, in my opinion, for putting a COT and boosted tax value there - not some notion of being able to close the passage, but rather, being able to close other significant ports nearby and force trade through that province.

 

[Nikolai II]

A CoT could be ok, there should be one or two down there somewhere (Spain gets one by event, why not al-andalus too) - I just don't agree about 'substantial' tax base increases (unless substantial = 1-2)