Sicily advice anyone?

[Bitt3rSteel]

So, here's the situation: I started out as Vermandois, last bastion of Karling glory. As a lowly count i did some plotting and scheming and over time i managed to get the entire duchy in my demnese, including Paris (god i love dumb AI handing out counties to retards). fast foreward to the first crusade for Sicily. I managed to get the highest contribution there as Duke of whatever dejure duchy Vermandois is in (im sorry, i forgot :<) so the whole of the spoils is handed to me, but remains in french hands, meaning i cant create the King Tier title.

Being a tad ticked off about that i changed my primary title to Duke of Apulia, swear fealty to the Bassileus and POW, im King of Sicily; ruling over all its Dejure lands, 2 duchies in France and 2 more spare counties in France aswell.


Now its been 3 generations of kings, i managed to break free and stay free of the ERE and my sights are set on France for the moment, the HRE after that.

How would i go about getting those titles back into the karling family, where they belong?
the pope wont ever grant me an invasion, i rly dont want to just forge claims one county at a time and even if i could, the HRE will just smack me right back down :<

is there hope? or should House Karling resign in its fate to rule the south of Italy?

 

[Yenzen]

You could switch to elective, then marry a female heir to a claimant matrilinary and then push his claim.

Do keep in mine that you only need 50% to usurp the king title.

 

[unmerged(617449)]

The pope will grant you an invasion, you just have to know when to ask.

One, make sure your realm size is at least one holding less than the invasion target. Two, keep your chancellor and court chaplain in Rome (not strictly necessary, but speeds up the process). Three, join all holy wars and loot the counties by making sure you are the first army to siege it, even if you don't have the numbers to properly siege (giving you both piety and money). Four, wait for a liege change in the kingdom of choice and end all wars you're currently in (assassinating the liege when you have 100 opinion with Rome is a great time, see number 2). Five, ask for the excommunication of the new king. Six, ask for invasion before the rebellions kick in for the inevitable succession crises. Seven, declare war when those succession wars are in full swing.

If the excommunication stays in place for the whole invasion, you get piety for every siege and battle (can't remember if this is true, pretty sure, though), use this new stock of piety to ask for an invasion of the next biggest target (or two, depending on how much piety you can gather in the previous invasion).

Invasion CBs are too easy to get and too easy to win.

edit: forgot to add: switch to Papal Investiture to halve the cost on all piety spending.

 

[Lamprey]

You don't need a claim on the target's title to get an invasion CB?

 

[DC123456789]

You don't need a claim on the target's title to get an invasion CB?

Not if you're smaller.

 

[unmerged(617449)]

Not to mention, the issue of being smaller only matters when you make the request, not when you start the invasion.

A few low down dirty tricks to become or appear to be smaller than the target:
Grant independence to anyone that asks, then take it back once the invasion request is granted.
Soften up heathens that share a border with the target (press a holy war for the smallest part of it, or a county claim if possible) then join the war of the target kingdom when they inevitably declare war on the scraps (you'll also be getting all of that heathen land when you invade, win-win, those counties are also easy targets for a quick war score boost, one more win).
Grant a kingdom (or title of the highest rank you currently own) to a bloodline relative to split the realm but create a very willing ally for the upcoming invasion.

 

[Bitt3rSteel]

i can work with those sugestions would you also happen to have ideas about building up military strenght? i cant really go blow for blow with the French and Imperial doomstacks

 

[unmerged(617449)]

Well, there are several ways to even the numbers. One, kill off the person married to the French or HRE crown that is causing the alliance and console the newly widowed by marrying your close relative off to that person. Your potential enemy is now your ally, shift your chancellor there to increase the odds that the HRE will join your war on your side. Two, create instability in both realms right before you invade, limiting the capacity for levies, and in a lot of cases, causing the enemy's ally to reject the request for reinforcements (the excommunicated liege will have difficulty calling in allies, anyway, because of the negative modifier). Three, save up a surplus of gold to have an initial hammer of mercenaries against the doomstacks. Once the first wave is broken and scattered, you can disband most or all of the mercenaries and siege with regular troops with impunity. Four, always use terrain, generals, and (if you have the use of retinues) troop types to your advantage.

 

[Fishy101]

Even if the Pope has 100 opinion of you, you cannot get someone excommunicated unless the Pope has a low opinion of the character. Likewise, you cannot get the Pope to agree to an invasion unless the Pope has a low opinion of the character. Emperors, kings and even dukes generally can find very good guardians to educate their heirs. You may find the invasion CB a lot more difficult to use than you imagined.

 

[unmerged(617449)]

You may have missed the part where I suggested killing the king to get a new liege. Unless the heir is landed, the pope starts with a neutral opinion of the new king. Even if you have to kill through a few to get one that is cynical or some other trait the pope doesn't like, it's really quite simple to get the excommunication, and once the excommunication goes through, the second request is a sure thing. I've gotten three invasion requests through in one ruler's life time, it's that easy.

You just have to recall all those annoying times your heir got excommunicated on day one because of free investiture to realize how rigged the game is for pious catholics versus the not so pious.

edit: the last sneaky bit of advice is to plot to assassinate the current pope, then on the first day of the new pope, send in the 20 gold bribe and ask for the excommunication (the 20 gold day one bribe works for every new ruler that wasn't already landed, and probably should be fixed, honestly). The request doesn't always succeed, but if all else fails, it's worth a shot if you can't get rid of the targeted king through assassination.

 

[Fishy101]

The only targets I want to invade are large countries such as France or HRE which generally have Papal investiture. I assassinated the Kaiser until I got one that the pope will agree to let me invade. But I was playing as a larger empire with a high income. I forgot but it was probably around 100/g month. I think it cost around 450g per assassination? You could end up assassinating a lot of people in order to get to the right one so you need to have a lot of gold or get lucky. And every time you fail, it will hurt your reputation within the target country which is no big deal if you siege down every county and get rid of all is vassals. But if you cannot do that for whatever reason that modifier will come back to haunt you. So, no I don't think the invasion CB is easy to use because you need to assassinate people. Unless you reload a lot its not that easy to assassinate a ruler of a large realm. Their spymaster is probably not their wife.

 

[Iron Chariots]

i can work with those sugestions would you also happen to have ideas about building up military strenght? i cant really go blow for blow with the French and Imperial doomstacks

You're in luck, as it turns out, because Sicily is prime real estate. I suggest making Palermo your capital and holding at least the entire island of Sicily. Upgrade your county capital castles as much as possible militarily and get the level 2 castle village. If you can fabricate a claim on Venice, do so and take it for your demense as well to boost your income (you'll have to revoke a barony in Venice-- when you do so, I suggest banishing rather than just revoking if possible to get the gold.)

Ideally, you want to make an alliance with either the Emperor or the King of France while you attack the other, but if you strike at the right moment this isn't strictly speaking necessary. Other good options here, depending on your game, might include Poland, Hungary, or the Christian Spanish Kingdoms if they've unified.

 

[unmerged(617449)]

I should have been more specific: use the plot mechanic to assassinate. If you can bribe the right person (for England, it was the Earl of Sandwich, that was good fun), especially the spymaster, you can rattle off the assassinations until you get the right target to excommunicate.

 

[dragoon9105]

Sicily and Tunis Baby thats all you'll need

One strategy to become the Emperor is marry a duke/King within the Empire, then assassinate your spouse so your heir gets her title first. He will then inherit the Kingdom later but remain as an HRE vassal, Then its just a simple matter of getting elected. The AI loves to try and get Player controlled king's elected to prevent them from getting to powerful within the Empire so switch your Culture to German (Keep your Heir french if you can help it) and Bam, Emperor.

If you want to expand by force I'll recommend the Claimate strategy, With wonderful Sicily and Tunis (and Naples), You already have Paris so hold onto Paris and that duchy and fill it with castles. Otherwise fill in everything coastal with cities. If your not getting enough income you could try expanding into Iberia or Egypt during a Crusade/if its weak. Put Feudal Taxes to low if you haven't already otherwise make sure all your vassals love you before you go to war.

Get a claimant to a large french duchy, you want to start with Flanders if you can otherwise try for southern french duchies in Dejure Aquitaine(We'll go over why later). Land your claimant with some land in north africa and press the claim, Buy all the Mercenaries you can afford (even -10 income is management if you have a good amount saved up) and bring the pain. Bring all your forces together and break each french deathstack when they are alone, You have the advantage of Sicilies Huge navy so use that to stay mobile, Seige Flanders/Aquitaine and then sail away. When france comes and frees the provinces send a single stack of 3k or so to run around resieging them all (Cavalry Retinues FTW). Eventually France will fold.

Now start assassinating, France gets claims on anything you take but if you took territories in Aquitaine or Flanders he lacks Dejure claims to get it back, So assassinate until those mean claims go away. Regroup, regenerate your levies and increase the size of your Gold pile, Then have at it again. When your strong enough to beat france without having to use your navy besides to get there start working on actual french duchies, When you have enough Usurp the Kingdom and Start your Glorious crusade to form Francia

 

[toniagree]

The best way to have an invasion granted is to assasinate/plot to kill the french king until a moron (or a kid) is on the throne. If your relation with the pope is >50, you are good to go.

 

[unmerged(617449)]

Yesterday, I tested my advice to make sure it could be replicated in other parts of the map. From a 1066 Poland start, I had invasion claims on the HRE, France, and Hungary in the first ten years. I asked for each invasion one after the other as soon as I notched 750 piety and the 500 piety ambition goal (the goal can be achieved more than once a lifetime if you spend down the piety). I didn't even have to assassinate or excommunicate anyone (other than a couple of my own dukes to jump start my holy warring). Contrary to what Fishy101 said earlier in the thread, the Pope will simply grant you invasion claims on everything larger than your realm if you rack up a decent chunk of piety.

And yes, I'll successfully use all those claims. After a knife in a Jutta, Hungary entirely dropped off the map in 1083. Filling in 76 holdings at once is a bit tiresome, so I took a break from the experiment, but after five years, I'm certain the complete eradication of France would begin, and probably ten years after that invasion completed, the HRE would be 100 percent Polish.

Doing this in the circumstances the OP described sounds like child's play, especially if he doesn't feel the need to purge the current Frankish and Occitan nobility.

P.S. For the OP: excommunication also lowers the amount of vassal levies the excommunicated liege can call up. Wait a bit after the excommunication goes through before declaring war to make sure the levy amounts change (at least a couple of game days).