Shouldn't US be much, much stronger than in HOI3 to represent historical strength?

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adam_grif

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Playing as USA, I just land on Tokyo directly. 2x MAR attacking Tokyo, 3x MAR landing next to it and getting some envelopment going on. If you're really keen you can drop something fast to try and encircle it too. You capture their supply depot/capital and can then ship in out of supply units from iwo jima. 20-25 divisions is plenty to defeat them, usually by the end of 1942.

I'm sure somebody will get offended that I play on Normal though :happy:


And hey, even if Franco joins the Allies, how does that ruin this strategy? What's he gonna do, liberate France? Lol. Every BEF division in Spain is one less in North Africa. The whole point is to get peace with the UK before invading the USSR. This strategy pretty much guarantees that.

It doesn't do anything of the sort, even if the med was an axis lake the British wouldn't have just sued for peace. The UK loses their staging ground to screw with the Italians, but the home islands are still secure. Winston was not going to give up unless there were German boots on the ground in England, and even then probably not before giving them a bloody nose. The reason Winston won't sign a peace treaty until actually "defeated" is because he's aware that any peace will be enabling further conquests, and the emergence of a German superpower on the continent makes Britain's future extremely tenuous, even in some theoretical scenario where the Germans would offer Status Quo Ante Bellum.
 
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keynes2.0

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The soviets did take horrific losses in 1941. But here's the thing, so did the Germans. Look at German casualty reports, aside from Jan 1943 (Stalingrad), the summer months represent the costliest months of the war for the Germans as well, until summer 44 when they are fighting on both fronts.

There are relative degrees of costliness. The Soviet losses were far worse. This is what I said "If you extrapolated that trend you would not extrapolate it to Soviet victory, you'd extrapolate it to exhaustion of Soviet manpower and industry". The rate things were going in '41, the Soviets would bleed to death first.

My point was not that the Germans had proven that they could win in 41. My point is that if things had continued in the manner as 41, the Soviets would have certainly been exhausted first.



Germany is grossly over extended with logistical issues and an army that is slowly bleeding out. You can even transfer half of the manpower involved in occupational duties as highly unrealistic as that would be, and it wouldn't have made a difference in 1941. If it doesn't make a difference in 1941, it doesn't make a difference in '42 or '43 or 44' or '45.

Germany continued to inflict disproportionate losses on the Soviets in '42 and 43. The Soviets didn't achieve parity until well into 45.



I'll ask again. How does Germany plausibly win. Plenty of people have said Germany would have won, but when questioned they don't provide a reason, they just say "Because" or get nasty!

I already gave you a reason, attrition. I'd hardly say it was an inevitability but it certainly was a possibility.

The Germans inflicted 3-1 and 2-1 loss ratios on the Soviets well after the tide had turned. The tide had turned because everyone could plainly see that the Soviets were going to outlast the Germans. But the Soviets were going to outlast the Germans with western support. Without western support that doesn't seem so inevitable.

The German economy would much outpaced the Soviet one. Historically the German economy grew but was inhibited by bombing and the oil shortages. Without the western front the germans wouldn't be using oil on planes and submarines in the west and would have faced no bombing at all. Historically the Soviet economy fell a lot during the german invasion then recovered to about 80% of pre-war levels or 90% if you include imports as part of the economy. The Soviets made up for their relative economic decline by vastly increasing their mobilization of the economy. Imports helped with this substantially. Between 42 and 44, the soviet military expenditures rose from about 100 billion to 125 billion rubles. Imports in 44 were about 25 billion rubles. Naturally Soviet military expenditures probably would have risen without imports but imports were a very, very key part of the rise.

So if we assume no western front then Germany with it's additional resources could have plausibly just continued to trade territory with the Soviets on Soviet ground in '43 to '45. They dont suffer the summer collapse in '44 because they have the resources to supply those armies. The soviets have significantly less materials for their offenses. Suppose both sides took losses at their historical rate, that is to say that the Soviets gradually shift from losing men and material about 3-1 to about 2-1. That is to say we are supposing the Soviets improve their ratio as they did historically despite the fact that the Soviet material position is weaker.

Now the obvious retort is that in 45 the Germans run out of men and they can't just strip the garrisons in France least they face a revolt. Well, let's just consider the casualties on the western front and the loss of Italy. Without the invasion of Italy there would be no surrender of Italy meaning that Italian troops could have continued to serve garrison and combat duties. Even though the Italian army hardly came across as a juggernaut, you are talking about 4 million men in uniform, some of them were quite useful. And the casualties on the western front account for another 800,000 fighting men that were not available.

So now lets imagine the Soviet offensives of 44-45 again but with these new conditions. The Soviets attack the Germans, this time in the summer. They're driven back once again and they're forced to commit another million men... because they've actually got those million men to commit thanks to the lack of a western front. There's 600k Germans who weren't casualties in the west, 200k Italians who weren't casualties, 130k Germans who aren't needed to defend Italy and aren't needed for garrison duty in territory of their ally, well that's only 930k men but still, that's a pretty useful number. So the Germans are holding things together without desperately stripping the french or Norwegian garrisons.

And at this point the Russians are in a bind. They have mobilized completely. This has let them keep a 6 million man army in the field but they dont have another 6 million men after that. They've taken far more losses then the Axis. The Germans have heavily mobilized but can go a little bit and history shows they would be willing to. The soviets are already at total war, they've been devoting everything they can since 42. Anyone can see that time is on the germans side in these conditions. If there's another year of brutal warfare the germans will scrape the bottom of the barrel and fight on while the soviets have already scraped the bottom of the barrel. It's easier for the Germans to make their factories give up 1 million men then for the Soviets to find yet another 2 million men to spare in their factories. Then on top of everything the famine or '46 and '47 rears it's ugly head.

I'm not going to predict the outcome, there's simply too many different things that could happen, some resulting in Soviet survival, some not. But it's very clear that the Soviets would face an existential threat at this point. The Germans would be exhausted but not facing an existential threat. Historically, the Soviets could keep fighting on in 45 because they knew they were going to win and could see things improving every year. But without that certainty they were going to win and with things not getting better year after year it wouldn't have been so certain they would have survived so much.

Looking at things very broadly, it's not a very complicated idea. It's common knowledge that the Soviet commitment to the war was overwhelming. They didn't hold back but it was still a long, hard fight and required every bit of manpower they had. We are now going to suppose that they dont have some of the resources they had historically. Naturally that is going to mean a harder fight and require even more manpower. That's additional manpower they didn't have.

Now I'm sure that you are going to say that this assumption or that one is unrealistic. I'd agree, I hardly think the Soviets or German would have followed their historical strategy if there was no western front. I'm just trying to show a baseline that's within the realm of historical plausibility. It may be true that Hitler sealed his fate in '42, that's too complicated a question for me. But I think it's very much clear that the Soviet Union completely on its own was not certain to win. Even though the eastern contribution was greater then the western the western was still very important because when things are close to balanced, a relatively small contribution can tip the balance very greatly. Suppose the soviets had another 3 years to industrialize before the war. That would have greatly helped their chances but would have done so through a relatively incremental increase in economic output.
 

Secret Master

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I think you've misunderstood his earlier point.

If the Soviets simply refuse to sue for peace after the fall of Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad, what can Germany do? Continue to push across the Urals? How much of the army would be required to garrison currently held Soviet territory from partisan activity in such a situation? And what incentive do the Soviets have to sign any kind of peace at all under the conditions which Germany waged the war?

I could see the Soviets dragging out the war into the 1950s or even 1960s, with massive underground resistance for the entire period. That's not really victory, especially if you consider that with no surrender, it becomes almost impossible to fully utilize the resources of the conquered area, which is half the point of the invasion in the first place.

That's my earlier point, too. The Soviets, whether Stalin or other party leaders, have zero incentive to ever make peace while a single kilometer of Soviet territory is held by the Germans. The people of the Soviet Union (not just the Russians, mind you, but all the nationalities) also have zero incentive to give up the fight. It's a colossal SNAFU in political terms, as well as strategic terms and economic terms.

There are plenty of situations where Germany could "win the war," but I can't think of any that would mesh with Nazi ideology or Hitler's flawed understanding of how to fight wars. You have to rewrite history the way we do in HOI3, with collaboration governments instead of total exploitation in the occupied Soviet Union. You also have to wage the war in different terms. If the war was just "Hey Stalin, we'll stop annihilating divisions if you cede us Poland, the Ukraine, and the Baltic coastline except Leningrad, and agree to give us X amount of resources," it would have been an entirely different ballgame. But since that's not what the Germans did, it becomes a total mess.
 

TDT25

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Keynes, your argument is attrition and the German economy being able to outpace the soviet. I suggest you read Adam Tooes work on the economies of the relative nations (and has already been quoted in this thread.) the reality is the German economy never even came close to matching soviet output, even without western support.

Secondly attrition......

As I already stated, not even the most fervent Nazi would believe they could win a war of attrition against the Soviet Union. The basis of Germany's strategy in WW2 was to quickly defeat enemy armies in the field in great Bewegungskrieg (Wars of movement) and avoid at all costs the costly Stellungskrieg (attritional warfare) of WW1. If your argument is attrition, that simply ignores the fact, as pointed out in this thread, that Germany had already exhausted itself by the end of 1941. They could not possibly hope to out-attrition the soviets when they themselves had already been bled white. And I'll repeat again, even the most fervent, radical, and over-confident Generals in OKW recognized the need to defeat the Soviets in one campaign because Germany could not possibly outlast them in a war of attrition.
 

Invader_Canuck

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There are relative degrees of costliness. The Soviet losses were far worse. This is what I said "If you extrapolated that trend you would not extrapolate it to Soviet victory, you'd extrapolate it to exhaustion of Soviet manpower and industry". The rate things were going in '41, the Soviets would bleed to death first.

My point was not that the Germans had proven that they could win in 41. My point is that if things had continued in the manner as 41, the Soviets would have certainly been exhausted first.





Germany continued to inflict disproportionate losses on the Soviets in '42 and 43. The Soviets didn't achieve parity until well into 45.





I already gave you a reason, attrition. I'd hardly say it was an inevitability but it certainly was a possibility.

The Germans inflicted 3-1 and 2-1 loss ratios on the Soviets well after the tide had turned. The tide had turned because everyone could plainly see that the Soviets were going to outlast the Germans. But the Soviets were going to outlast the Germans with western support. Without western support that doesn't seem so inevitable.

The German economy would much outpaced the Soviet one. Historically the German economy grew but was inhibited by bombing and the oil shortages. Without the western front the germans wouldn't be using oil on planes and submarines in the west and would have faced no bombing at all. Historically the Soviet economy fell a lot during the german invasion then recovered to about 80% of pre-war levels or 90% if you include imports as part of the economy. The Soviets made up for their relative economic decline by vastly increasing their mobilization of the economy. Imports helped with this substantially. Between 42 and 44, the soviet military expenditures rose from about 100 billion to 125 billion rubles. Imports in 44 were about 25 billion rubles. Naturally Soviet military expenditures probably would have risen without imports but imports were a very, very key part of the rise.

So if we assume no western front then Germany with it's additional resources could have plausibly just continued to trade territory with the Soviets on Soviet ground in '43 to '45. They dont suffer the summer collapse in '44 because they have the resources to supply those armies. The soviets have significantly less materials for their offenses. Suppose both sides took losses at their historical rate, that is to say that the Soviets gradually shift from losing men and material about 3-1 to about 2-1. That is to say we are supposing the Soviets improve their ratio as they did historically despite the fact that the Soviet material position is weaker.

Now the obvious retort is that in 45 the Germans run out of men and they can't just strip the garrisons in France least they face a revolt. Well, let's just consider the casualties on the western front and the loss of Italy. Without the invasion of Italy there would be no surrender of Italy meaning that Italian troops could have continued to serve garrison and combat duties. Even though the Italian army hardly came across as a juggernaut, you are talking about 4 million men in uniform, some of them were quite useful. And the casualties on the western front account for another 800,000 fighting men that were not available.

So now lets imagine the Soviet offensives of 44-45 again but with these new conditions. The Soviets attack the Germans, this time in the summer. They're driven back once again and they're forced to commit another million men... because they've actually got those million men to commit thanks to the lack of a western front. There's 600k Germans who weren't casualties in the west, 200k Italians who weren't casualties, 130k Germans who aren't needed to defend Italy and aren't needed for garrison duty in territory of their ally, well that's only 930k men but still, that's a pretty useful number. So the Germans are holding things together without desperately stripping the french or Norwegian garrisons.

And at this point the Russians are in a bind. They have mobilized completely. This has let them keep a 6 million man army in the field but they dont have another 6 million men after that. They've taken far more losses then the Axis. The Germans have heavily mobilized but can go a little bit and history shows they would be willing to. The soviets are already at total war, they've been devoting everything they can since 42. Anyone can see that time is on the germans side in these conditions. If there's another year of brutal warfare the germans will scrape the bottom of the barrel and fight on while the soviets have already scraped the bottom of the barrel. It's easier for the Germans to make their factories give up 1 million men then for the Soviets to find yet another 2 million men to spare in their factories. Then on top of everything the famine or '46 and '47 rears it's ugly head.

I'm not going to predict the outcome, there's simply too many different things that could happen, some resulting in Soviet survival, some not. But it's very clear that the Soviets would face an existential threat at this point. The Germans would be exhausted but not facing an existential threat. Historically, the Soviets could keep fighting on in 45 because they knew they were going to win and could see things improving every year. But without that certainty they were going to win and with things not getting better year after year it wouldn't have been so certain they would have survived so much.

Looking at things very broadly, it's not a very complicated idea. It's common knowledge that the Soviet commitment to the war was overwhelming. They didn't hold back but it was still a long, hard fight and required every bit of manpower they had. We are now going to suppose that they dont have some of the resources they had historically. Naturally that is going to mean a harder fight and require even more manpower. That's additional manpower they didn't have.

Now I'm sure that you are going to say that this assumption or that one is unrealistic. I'd agree, I hardly think the Soviets or German would have followed their historical strategy if there was no western front. I'm just trying to show a baseline that's within the realm of historical plausibility. It may be true that Hitler sealed his fate in '42, that's too complicated a question for me. But I think it's very much clear that the Soviet Union completely on its own was not certain to win. Even though the eastern contribution was greater then the western the western was still very important because when things are close to balanced, a relatively small contribution can tip the balance very greatly. Suppose the soviets had another 3 years to industrialize before the war. That would have greatly helped their chances but would have done so through a relatively incremental increase in economic output.

The German economy doesn't outstrip the Soviet economy in any scenario you can imagine. German industry cannot out produce Soviet industry, even with Soviet industry at ~50%. You are assuming that the Soviets are not improving and they will continue to take losses like they did in the first 3 months of 1941. The Soviet Union never again even remotely approached the losses that it took in the first 3 months. In this hypothetical situation, after the Soviets stop Germany at Leningrad and Moscow, and at Stalingrad the reversal isn't as quick. The USSR is going to take longer to transition to fluid offensive operations. This means more time deep in Soviet territory for the Axis forces. This means high rates of attrition and even more consumption of resources just to keep logistics moving.

The conservation of resources in the west if there is no active war is going to be almost completely mitigated by the continued activity deep in the USSR. Historically the logistical burden was lessened as Soviet armies forcefully shortened German supply lines. In this situation you are going to see those gains lost deep in the USSR.

Germany is simply not going to win a war of attrition. The longer the war drags on, the weaker Germany gets and the longer they hold onto territory on the USSR the more manpower has to be earmarked for occupational duties. The USSR is free to direct 100% of avaliable manpower and resources towards ousting Germany. Germany HAS to keep the west garrisoned, even if there is no invasion threat. It also HAS to keep garrison forces in occupied USSR and the rest of Europe. Again, the longer the war drags on, partisan activity is going to increase.

Germany is certainly capable of dragging the war out for YEARS longer than historically, however I still cannot see an end game for Germany that results in the USSR surrendering. At best Germany could hope for a white peace, but as long as Stalin was alive I can't see him not fighting to exact revenge. Occupation beyond what Germany DID occupy was simply not feasible. That leaves too much of the USSR free to continue to fight, and leaves too much of Germany's resources tied down in policing. Eventually it's going to collapse.
 

keynes2.0

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I think you've misunderstood his earlier point.

If the Soviets simply refuse to sue for peace after the fall of Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad, what can Germany do? Continue to push across the Urals? How much of the army would be required to garrison currently held Soviet territory from partisan activity in such a situation? And what incentive do the Soviets have to sign any kind of peace at all under the conditions which Germany waged the war?

What Germany could do is wage a war of total destruction to make it so that the soviets simply are not capable of effectively launching offensives. If it's 1946 the war is on Soviet ground, the Soviets have lost 12 million military personnel and 15 million civilians, the soviets are going through a famine and the germans are outproducing them. What exactly are the soviets going to do? Send more men to die in futile attacks for a war they will never win? Remember the premise here is no outside support, the Soviets can't outlast the Germans, they need to bleed the Germans more then the Germans bleed the Soviets.

It certainly wasn't the Germans original plan but it's pretty close to their actual course of action. What's that saying about plans and the enemy?

The German economy doesn't outstrip the Soviet economy in any scenario you can imagine. German industry cannot out produce Soviet industry, even with Soviet industry at ~50%. You are assuming that the Soviets are not improving and they will continue to take losses like they did in the first 3 months of 1941.

Actually I was assuming Soviet historical losses. That's why I said "Suppose both sides took losses at their historical rate, that is to say that the Soviets gradually shift from losing men and material about 3-1 to about 2-1."

And it's really not hard to imagine a scenario where the Soviets are getting outproduced by the Germans. When Germany fully committed itself in 44 they were nearly matching Soviet numbers in terms of tanks and aircraft and far outstripped them in motor vehicles. The soviets had advantages in terms of artillery and small arms production but it's not like Germany was lacking in those, they just had a very different army organization. If German production was a little higher (fewer subs, no bombing) and Soviet production was a bit lower (no lend lease), Germany would have outpaced them. It's not a complicated idea, Germany had more workers in it's factories and better access to most raw materials except for oil. Germany also had allies who provided some industrial inputs. If you take away a major economic resource for the soviets they're economically in trouble.

Germany is simply not going to win a war of attrition. The longer the war drags on, the weaker Germany gets and the longer they hold onto territory on the USSR the more manpower has to be earmarked for occupational duties. The USSR is free to direct 100% of avaliable manpower and resources towards ousting Germany. Germany HAS to keep the west garrisoned, even if there is no invasion threat. It also HAS to keep garrison forces in occupied USSR and the rest of Europe. Again, the longer the war drags on, partisan activity is going to increase.

Like I said, we're going to assume that the Germans keep France and Norway heavily garrisoned like they did. We just aren't going to assume that they loose 800k men to the allies and station another 130k in Italy.

You keep responding to arguments that I'm not making...
 

dschoen

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Germany didn´t mobilize like the UK did in 1940 and 41. FAR from it.

You're expressing the old under-mobilization/"Blitzkrieg economy" story, a myth that comes out of the US Strategic Bombing Survey and Albert Speer's self-serving memoirs. It has been seriously challenged over the past six decades. Early-war German production was hampered by lack of resources and by its large investment in pre-war industrial expansion. These expenditures, begun even before 1936, promised the Germans a great increase in armaments production, but these increases could not be realized until 1942 at the earliest. Not coincidentally, that's precisely when Speer began to trumpet his "armaments miracle."

In reality, production increases had more to do with the completion of long-term industrial expansion projects, not with a sudden decision to wage Totaler Krieg in 1942/1943. In short, Hitler did not under-mobilize because of a misplaced belief in Blitzkrieg or out of a misguided effort to "spare the home front." In rough HOI3 terms, he had been building a bunch of IC since at least 1936, but much of this IC was still in the production queue during the early war.

And I'll repeat again, even the most fervent, radical, and over-confident Generals in OKW recognized the need to defeat the Soviets in one campaign because Germany could not possibly outlast them in a war of attrition.

Exactly. No one in OKW or the Armaments Ministry was under any illusions about what a war of attrition meant for Germany.
 

keynes2.0

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Exactly. No one in OKW or the Armaments Ministry was under any illusions about what a war of attrition meant for Germany.

Which proves precisely nothing. Nobody in the US in 1860 planned to wage a war of attrition except maybe Old Fuss and Feathers and he certainly didn't anticipate what happened. Nobody in France or Germany in 1913 planned to wage a war of attrition in eastern France. But when 1862 dragged along the Americans found out they were perfectly willing to wage attrition warfare. In 1915 the French and Germans discovered no sacrifice was too much. And in 1942 the Germans discovered they were willing to send as many of their young men to die as they could.

When the eastern front turned into a war of attrition, the Nazis didn't hold back or grow squeemish. They sent everything east they could. And if they had more to send east they would have.
 

Cardus

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You're expressing the old under-mobilization/"Blitzkrieg economy" story, a myth that comes out of the US Strategic Bombing Survey and Albert Speer's self-serving memoirs. It has been seriously challenged over the past six decades. Early-war German production was hampered by lack of resources and by its large investment in pre-war industrial expansion. These expenditures, begun even before 1936, promised the Germans a great increase in armaments production, but these increases could not be realized until 1942 at the earliest. Not coincidentally, that's precisely when Speer began to trumpet his "armaments miracle."

In reality, production increases had more to do with the completion of long-term industrial expansion projects, not with a sudden decision to wage Totaler Krieg in 1942/1943. In short, Hitler did not under-mobilize because of a misplaced belief in Blitzkrieg or out of a misguided effort to "spare the home front." In rough HOI3 terms, he had been building a bunch of IC since at least 1936, but much of this IC was still in the production queue during the early war.
I agree on that and I read the same. Regarding the first point by the way, for completion, in reality Hitler after the fall of France, for financial reasons, reduced for about a year the mobilization (or better didn't expand the production) and cancelled all projects that couldn't be implemented by the following year (e.g. stopped all research including jets, nuclear bomb, rockets, etc.)
 

dschoen

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Which proves precisely nothing. Nobody in the US in 1860 planned to wage a war of attrition except maybe Old Fuss and Feathers and he certainly didn't anticipate what happened. Nobody in France or Germany in 1913 planned to wage a war of attrition in eastern France. But when 1862 dragged along the Americans found out they were perfectly willing to wage attrition warfare. In 1915 the French and Germans discovered no sacrifice was too much. And in 1942 the Germans discovered they were willing to send as many of their young men to die as they could.

When the eastern front turned into a war of attrition, the Nazis didn't hold back or grow squeemish. They sent everything east they could. And if they had more to send east they would have.

Will to wage a war of attrition and capacity to do so successfully are two very different things. I don't doubt the German willingness to send young men to die; I doubt their capacity to die for an ultimate victory. Isn't it telling that the man running the armaments show in Germany believed the Germans could no longer win the war by November 1941?
 

TDT25

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Which proves precisely nothing. Nobody in the US in 1860 planned to wage a war of attrition except maybe Old Fuss and Feathers and he certainly didn't anticipate what happened. Nobody in France or Germany in 1913 planned to wage a war of attrition in eastern France. But when 1862 dragged along the Americans found out they were perfectly willing to wage attrition warfare. In 1915 the French and Germans discovered no sacrifice was too much. And in 1942 the Germans discovered they were willing to send as many of their young men to die as they could.

When the eastern front turned into a war of attrition, the Nazis didn't hold back or grow squeemish. They sent everything east they could. And if they had more to send east they would have.

Just because Germany engaged in a war of attrition and sent many more to die after -941 doesn't make it a winnin strategy for them.

Throughout history German war planners have pursued short, decisive campaigns to quickly defeat the enemy because they knew Germany would not win wars of attrition against its larger neighbors. The generals of WW2 were no different. I think it's rather telling that even the most fervent Nazis like Franz Halder expressed serious misgivings about the need to defeat the Soviets quickly and the danger for Germany in not accomplishing that.
 

keynes2.0

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Just because Germany engaged in a war of attrition and sent many more to die after -941 doesn't make it a winnin strategy for them.

No but the fact that the Soviets would have exhausted their manpower without a western front and historical eastern losses was something I feel I might have mentioned ever so briefly. I dunno, maybe in a 1000 word post that you just read?
 

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You're expressing the old under-mobilization/"Blitzkrieg economy" story, a myth that comes out of the US Strategic Bombing Survey and Albert Speer's self-serving memoirs. It has been seriously challenged over the past six decades. Early-war German production was hampered by lack of resources and by its large investment in pre-war industrial expansion. These expenditures, begun even before 1936, promised the Germans a great increase in armaments production, but these increases could not be realized until 1942 at the earliest. Not coincidentally, that's precisely when Speer began to trumpet his "armaments miracle."

In reality, production increases had more to do with the completion of long-term industrial expansion projects, not with a sudden decision to wage Totaler Krieg in 1942/1943. In short, Hitler did not under-mobilize because of a misplaced belief in Blitzkrieg or out of a misguided effort to "spare the home front." In rough HOI3 terms, he had been building a bunch of IC since at least 1936, but much of this IC was still in the production queue during the early war.

Now i wont claim i have an expect knowledge on the germany economy in the 30s and 40s. But i do believe that quite a bit of their production increase was due to simplifying their designs. Germany overengineered alot and was not close to achieving their full potential in that regard. The Entwicklung series would have gotten them there or atleast close. On the other side the soviets had already made that optimisation.
 

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What's this fantasy "No enemies to Germany's west scenario?"

Including their forced allies in Europe, Germany did indeed have access to twice the population of the US. Guess how well that served them? There is no scenario where there is no allied blockade denying Germany access to foreign materials. Germany took a major hit to their economy by going to war, depriving them of their Soviet fuel and materials shipments.
 

TDT25

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No but the fact that the Soviets would have exhausted their manpower without a western front and historical eastern losses was something I feel I might have mentioned ever so briefly. I dunno, maybe in a 1000 word post that you just read?

Sure the USSR MAY have eventually exhausted its manpower reserves by the late 1940s if they continued to take that many casualties, but this isn't relevant to the fact that Germany ALREADY exhausted theirs essentially by the end of 1941. Yes Germany continued to fight for 3 more years but the reality is Germany was ALREADY scraping the bottom of the barrel by the end of the first year.
 

keynes2.0

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Sure the USSR MAY have eventually exhausted its manpower reserves by the late 1940s if they continued to take that many casualties, but this isn't relevant to the fact that Germany ALREADY exhausted theirs essentially by the end of 1941. Yes Germany continued to fight for 3 more years but the reality is Germany was ALREADY scraping the bottom of the barrel by the end of the first year.

So you are claiming that the Germans had their manpower more exhausted by taking 800k losses in 41 then the soviets were by taking 10 million losses over 41-45?

Saying the USSR would have won without western support is not the same as saying western support did not affect the outcome. No one here is saying the soviets won the war singlehandedly.

Several posters have said exactly that. For example:

The USA's significance in Germany's defeat is non-existent. It's significance in speeding the process up is significant.
 

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Several posters have said exactly that. For example:

Well that admittedly is a silly argument. "Speeding up the process" is the same as having a hand in the defeat. However it's a matter of semantics.
 

helgur

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Several posters have said exactly that. For example:
The USA's significance in Germany's defeat is non-existent. It's significance in speeding the process up is significant.

That is exactly why I posted in this thread in the first place. Without the western democracies involvement, mother Russia would be German colonies on today's map.

Well that admittedly is a silly argument. "Speeding up the process" is the same as having a hand in the defeat. However it's a matter of semantics.

Nope, its not semantics, it's historical revisionism
 
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