Shouldn't US be much, much stronger than in HOI3 to represent historical strength?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

illathid

Elector Count of Reikland
75 Badges
Feb 22, 2012
2.001
591
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
...we can look at what this problem through Clauswitzian theory regarding the center of gravity...

This whole post was a brilliant piece of analysis. I can't comment on its overall accuracy but its use of logic and reasoning is excellent.

I do have one question though. Given this "Center of Gravity" framework, how do you think Germany could have prosecuted a successful war against the Soviet Union? I'd really like to hear your take on it.
 
Last edited:

dschoen

First Lieutenant
49 Badges
Feb 22, 2012
250
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Rome: Vae Victis
Sure, but the dynamics of warfare change between Western and Eastern Europe….At the same time, I don't think this belittles what the Western Allies did either. The world would be a very different place today had our ancestors not stormed into Normandy and liberated half of Europe.

I'd just like to point out that, whether or not you agree with Invader_Canuck, this post is an erudite, tactful, and remarkably concise summation of a tremendous amount of historiographical literature. As a good Clausewitzian who also appreciates David Stahel's work on Barbarossa, I like the discussion of center of gravity. Kudos to Invader_Canuck for taking the time to type it up.

TDT25 adds some useful and important points. There's little reason to suppose the fall of Moscow would have necessitated a Soviet collapse. It certainly didn't guarantee Napoleon's victory. There's a reason Tchaikovski's 1812 Overture enjoyed a sudden resurgence in popularity during Barbarossa.
 

TDT25

Major
10 Badges
May 17, 2012
697
33
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
This whole post was a brilliant piece of analysis. I can't comment on it's overall accuracy but it's use of logic and reasoning is excellent.

I do have one question though. Given this "Center of Gravity" framework, how do you think Germany could have prosecuted a successful war against the Soviet Union? I'd really like to hear your take on it.

I can't speak for Invader but here's my take. Invader's post is one of the most brilliant summaries of the concept of Clausewitz's center of gravity.

First of all to any readers out there, please read up on David Stahel's work on the German campaigns of 1941, David Glantz's work, Adam Tooze, there is a lot of really great information out there if you really want to gain a better understanding of the Eastern Front.

How could Germany have prosecuted a successful war against the Soviet Union?

As Germany was constructed on June 22nd, 1941, it is very hard for me to imagine some kind of scenario where Germany defeats the Soviet Union. Obviously in order to imagine a scenario where Germany defeats the USSR requires a lot of revisions in the history book. To put in concisely, this would require German decision makers to act rationally. They would need to gather proper intelligence. They would need to revamp their industrial policies. They would need to understand the nature of the total war which would exist between Germany and the USSR. They would need to do so many things differently from the 1930's onward.

However this is the classic contradiction when discussing German WW2 hypotheticals. The problem with that, is that if the decision makers in Germany were rational enough to understand the gravity of their situation in June 1941, they would likely have never arrived in that situation in the first place. in short, to defeat the USSR requires rational thinking, and the leadership of the Nazi state were not exactly of the most rational breed. There were some rational minds in the Wehrmacht who could see the foreboding future of war with the USSR, but they were greatly outnumbered (and to that point in the war Hitler had seemed like a genius, making it very difficult to question his decisions.)
 

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.579
19.868
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
However if we want to spin this in a more modern sense, we can look at what this problem through Clauswitzian theory regarding the center of gravity. In Western Europe this CoG is intrinsically limited by the size of a country. When Napoleon stormed through Western Europe, surrender was mandated by the fact the country was at the mercy of the invader once the army was defeated. The army in that case IS the CoG. When you flip it to Russia, the army is not the CoG. The CoG is the population of the country and the land itself. To win you need to occupy an impossible swath of land to clamp down on the manpower and industry.

Sun Tzu would like to remind his distinguished colleague Clausewitz that the mere fact that Germany felt compelled to attack the Soviet Union in the first place represents a failure of the first order. While Germany needed resources, there was nothing stopping her from trading for the resources. If the ability to trade for resources was insufficient to Germany's needs (and in many cases it was), then being forced into a war not at her time of choosing, on her own terms, or with the ability to put the entire economic and military might of the nation into the task, represents the worst in political and military failure.

This failure is further compounded, in terms Sun Tzu would understand, by a failure to make it easy for the opposing state or its military to surrender. The terms under which the conflict was fought, including an attempt to wipe out the Soviet state and occupy the whole damn country, violates the basic dictum that you should make it easy to surrender to you. If the Germans needed the resources, a simple ultimatum after the initial defeats (say, "Deliver unto us 10,000,000 tons of X, Y, and Z resources every year for 10 years and we go away) would have sufficed. No territory even needed to change hands during WWII between the Soviets and Germans for Germany to substantially improve her economic position. Instead, by pursuing a policy that put the backs of the Soviet people against a virtual wall, the Germans created the very situation that ended up defeating them.

Now, someone is going to remind us for the 1,349,939th time that Hitler personally could not accept anything less than annexation of huge swaths of Soviet territory for philosophical reasons. But those philosophical reasons represent a failure to understand either Clausewitz's thought or Sun Tzu's thought. While there may have been situations or circumstances were defeating the Soviet Union was possible for Hitler's Germany, 1941 while still at war with the Allies and demanding the complete annihilation of the Soviet state isn't one of those situations.
 

mursolini

Field Marshal
16 Badges
Feb 1, 2014
3.342
3.534
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II
This failure is further compounded, in terms Sun Tzu would understand, by a failure to make it easy for the opposing state or its military to surrender. The terms under which the conflict was fought, including an attempt to wipe out the Soviet state and occupy the whole damn country, violates the basic dictum that you should make it easy to surrender to you. If the Germans needed the resources, a simple ultimatum after the initial defeats (say, "Deliver unto us 10,000,000 tons of X, Y, and Z resources every year for 10 years and we go away) would have sufficed. No territory even needed to change hands during WWII between the Soviets and Germans for Germany to substantially improve her economic position. Instead, by pursuing a policy that put the backs of the Soviet people against a virtual wall, the Germans created the very situation that ended up defeating them.
+1.
There was a huge collaboration of soviet citizens with Nazis. For first half of year Nazis were welcome and in many cases received assistance of local population, including a huge amount of supplies that were carried by soviet citizens for Germans, and a high number of enlisted into police units to police the local population.

If Germany would just treat local population well, like in occupied France set up puppet governments consisting of locals, it would fare far better, and would probably even have a chance to win the war, like it did win during the WW1, by forcing soviets to fight other soviets.
 

dschoen

First Lieutenant
49 Badges
Feb 22, 2012
250
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Rome: Vae Victis
Sun Tzu would like to remind his distinguished colleague Clausewitz that the mere fact that Germany felt compelled to attack the Soviet Union in the first place represents a failure of the first order. While Germany needed resources, there was nothing stopping her from trading for the resources. If the ability to trade for resources was insufficient to Germany's needs (and in many cases it was), then being forced into a war not at her time of choosing, on her own terms, or with the ability to put the entire economic and military might of the nation into the task, represents the worst in political and military failure.

Secret Master brings up several critical issues, matters that dominated discussion in Berlin after the fall of France. German leadership clearly recognized the looming Anglo-American industrial threat. Despite the confiscation of France's significant armaments industry and continental possessions, the Germans could derive little benefit from their sudden gains, owing to a crippling lack of resources, especially coal. The British blockade prevented Germany from supplying its industry with critical natural resources from the Americas and deprived the French armaments industry of its traditional cross-Channel supply of coal. Hitler saw the writing on the wall. He believed that without attaining continental autarky, he would have little prospect of defeating the combined might of Britain and the United States.

What, then, could Hitler have done? As Secret Master rightly points out, Germany could have bound itself ever more tightly to the Soviet Union. Only the USSR held reserves of grain, coal, iron, metal ores, and oil necessary for a long-term strategic war with Britain and America. Stalin, in fact, began what Heinrich Schwendemann has termed a "Soviet export offensive" designed to so completely fetter the German economy to the Soviet Union that Hitler would not dream of turning east and actualizing the odious geopolitical end-goals spelled out in Mein Kampf. Stalin succeeded insofar as many of those members of the German Foreign Office privy to the Barbarossa plan thought it insane in light of Germany's dependence on Soviet trade.

In Hitler's mind, however, this dependence was entirely the problem.

Hitler repeatedly referred to the Soviet Union as Britain's "dagger on the mainland," poised to stab the Germans in the back just as they were locked in a cataclysmic strategic war with the economic behemoth that was the Anglo-American war machine. Only by delivering a "swift kick" to the "rotten" Soviet state and seizing its resources could Germany rid itself of this paralyzing economic dependence and pave the way for victory in the war of attrition to come. One must admit that, irrational as the Führerstaat often appears, there was a certain desperate logic in Hitler's assessment.
 

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.579
19.868
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
What, then, could Hitler have done? As Secret Master rightly points out, Germany could have bound itself ever more tightly to the Soviet Union. Only the USSR held reserves of grain, coal, iron, metal ores, and oil necessary for a long-term strategic war with Britain and America.

HOI3 note: As Japan, I never worry about embargoes from the US or Allies in general. The Soviets, especially when Germany invades, have plenty of resources to share with Japan. It's ahistorical, but attacking the Soviets as Japan makes no sense while conflict or embargoes are facing them across the Pacific because I just trade more with the Soviets (who want my supplies anyway). :)
 

Invader_Canuck

General
10 Badges
Apr 20, 2006
2.234
2.428
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
This whole post was a brilliant piece of analysis. I can't comment on its overall accuracy but its use of logic and reasoning is excellent.

I do have one question though. Given this "Center of Gravity" framework, how do you think Germany could have prosecuted a successful war against the Soviet Union? I'd really like to hear your take on it.

See below.

As Germany was constructed on June 22nd, 1941, it is very hard for me to imagine some kind of scenario where Germany defeats the Soviet Union. Obviously in order to imagine a scenario where Germany defeats the USSR requires a lot of revisions in the history book. To put in concisely, this would require German decision makers to act rationally. They would need to gather proper intelligence. They would need to revamp their industrial policies. They would need to understand the nature of the total war which would exist between Germany and the USSR. They would need to do so many things differently from the 1930's onward.

However this is the classic contradiction when discussing German WW2 hypotheticals. The problem with that, is that if the decision makers in Germany were rational enough to understand the gravity of their situation in June 1941, they would likely have never arrived in that situation in the first place. in short, to defeat the USSR requires rational thinking, and the leadership of the Nazi state were not exactly of the most rational breed. There were some rational minds in the Wehrmacht who could see the foreboding future of war with the USSR, but they were greatly outnumbered (and to that point in the war Hitler had seemed like a genius, making it very difficult to question his decisions.)

This is my feeling as well. For meaningful change in the outcome to be possible, you need to alter the fundamental fabric of Nazi Germany. By making those alterations, Germany almost certainly doesn't invade.
 

Invader_Canuck

General
10 Badges
Apr 20, 2006
2.234
2.428
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
+1.
There was a huge collaboration of soviet citizens with Nazis. For first half of year Nazis were welcome and in many cases received assistance of local population, including a huge amount of supplies that were carried by soviet citizens for Germans, and a high number of enlisted into police units to police the local population.

If Germany would just treat local population well, like in occupied France set up puppet governments consisting of locals, it would fare far better, and would probably even have a chance to win the war, like it did win during the WW1, by forcing soviets to fight other soviets.

The Secret Master details why this was not possible. This is one of those fabric changing fundamentals I mentioned in my previous post. For Germany to handle the occupation of the USSR in a kinder gentler manner, they wouldn't have been invading in the first place! Basically, they could have, but then that wouldn't be Nazi Germany, and there probably isn't a war.

To everyone else who called my CoG post brilliant, I'm blushing over here!
 

Sarmatian

Horse Archer
Feb 24, 2007
1.857
2.819
I do have one question though. Given this "Center of Gravity" framework, how do you think Germany could have prosecuted a successful war against the Soviet Union? I'd really like to hear your take on it.

It couldn't. Maybe with a very limited, clear and precise war goal it could have won. Like toppling Stalin. Even ousting the communists wouldn't have been possible probably.

There really isn't any scenario where Germany conquers SU. It's a feat bordering on miracle that they achieved as much as they did, really.
 

mursolini

Field Marshal
16 Badges
Feb 1, 2014
3.342
3.534
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II
The Secret Master details why this was not possible. This is one of those fabric changing fundamentals I mentioned in my previous post. For Germany to handle the occupation of the USSR in a kinder gentler manner, they wouldn't have been invading in the first place!
Eh? They needed to delay the (lebenshpaum)plan for a decade or so, set up puppets and then take over after war was finished. It was possible.
Germany managed to treat french, danish, norwegian and Dutch people well, the reason to not treat soviets well could`ve been eliminated if needed.

"It`s nazis they are stupid" logic doesn`t have to apply.
 

adam_grif

Lt. General
77 Badges
Sep 16, 2011
1.649
2.235
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
Invading Russia hoping that you can win via military means without a vast numerical superiority is a failure of planning.

It depends on circumstances. The Poles defeated the USSR and annexed quite a lot of land from them in 1920. Under the theory you're laying out here, this should have been impossible because defeating the army is not enough. What do you think the probability was that the newly re-formed Polish state could have "defeated' Russia in the sense of shutting down its warfighting capability and occupying the majority of its population? It's somewhere near 0%. It was military disorganization and internal problems in the state at the time that allowed the Poles this (Pyrrhic) victory, but if the Russians had kept fighting, they inevitably would have taken back their territory and put the Polish state at their mercy. To be honest, you don't even have to defeat an army, you just have to get them to agree to your terms of peace. If in 1941 after having an alarming percentage of their armed forces destroyed, cut off and / or surrendered to the Germans the USSR had sued for peace, it would have been very favorable to the Germans and we would probably be sitting here today talking about how inevitable a Soviet defeat was on account of their disorganized military and internal political instability, and how prophetic Hitler's words were regarding the USSR crumbling as soon as they "kicked down the door".

The large population and vast hinterland gives the USSR the theoretical capability of repelling invasions in the long term. The nature of its land being largely underdeveloped, sparse and often environmentally inhospitable is an additional problem facing invaders. If the whole of the USSR was built up like Western Europe and had a Mediterranean climate, the Germans probably could have reached the Urals in 1941. Ultimately, the willingness of the Russian people to fight in the face of terrible losses is the important factor in whether or not these advantages can be leveraged to drive off an invader. The fact that this was a war of extermination, and the brutal treatment of the Soviet citizenry by the invaders arguably made this inevitable.
 

Hakello

Major
69 Badges
Apr 8, 2010
501
1
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Penumbra - Black Plague
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2
  • Magicka
  • Lead and Gold
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
A lot of very good arguments here guys, very interesting read :)

Not to hijack this thread, but reading the last few posts it seems like a few suggestions are done:

1. captured IC should influence surrender progress (either by beeing VC's or in some other way)
This could be used to make sure russia does not surrender after the fall of Moscow/Stalingrad/Leningrad.

2. The war goals should impact the surrender progress (the harsher they are the longer they will fight)
This could be used to, IDK, give use to all the other war goals besides conquest while also adding a whole new layer of strategic management?

3. All armies in russia should have negative combat modifiers because of the higher gravity crushing their equipment

As to 1 and 2. Hell yes. As to 3, uh just ignore that I was joking :D
 

Beagá

Banned
74 Badges
May 27, 2007
13.783
4.044
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For The Glory
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
The large population and vast hinterland gives the USSR the theoretical capability of repelling invasions in the long term. The nature of its land being largely underdeveloped, sparse and often environmentally inhospitable is an additional problem facing invaders. If the whole of the USSR was built up like Western Europe and had a Mediterranean climate, the Germans probably could have reached the Urals in 1941. Ultimately, the willingness of the Russian people to fight in the face of terrible losses is the important factor in whether or not these advantages can be leveraged to drive off an invader. The fact that this was a war of extermination, and the brutal treatment of the Soviet citizenry by the invaders arguably made this inevitable.

Theoretically.

However without major railroad hubs, 30% less Lend Lease and 70% less oil production (in case Moscow, Leningrad and Caucasus are taken) the point can be made that the soviets are incapable of mounting offensive operations and thus are already strategically defeated. In such a case only a very fanatical government would keep fighting and even if it did it would be in the same situation as Nationalist China, hopeless and totally dependant on OUTSIDE help to retake what it lost.

You don´t really need a country to sign a Peace treaty to say it is defeated. Just as UK kept fighting because it had hope the US would help, the same can be said about SU, they kept fighting because they knew OUTSIDE factors would bring Germany down, which eventually did. If it was a one front war after France fell it´s beyond shadow of doubt Germany would win later. They are beyond the Urals you say? Make bombers and destroy it. It´s not like the VVS would be in any decent shape to stop it. 1942 wasn´t 1812. If you can´t use tanks, can´t use planes, you effectively STOP having the capacity to wage modern war.

Ask Iraq.

So the big point isn´t even if the soviet military can´t be brought into irrelevancy (it could) the problem is if Germany had the resources to finally put it into that situation.

Also, regarding "oh Russia can´t be defeated ever" no one expected France to fall in one month either, so instead of repeating clichés people should think a bit.
 
Last edited:

Opus

Captain
78 Badges
Mar 20, 2012
483
160
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
Theoretically.

However without major railroad hubs, 30% less Lend Lease and 70% less oil production (in case Moscow, Leningrad and Caucasus are taken) the point can be made that the soviets are incapable of mounting offensive operations and thus are already strategically defeated. In such a case only a very fanatical government would keep fighting and even if it did it would be in the same situation as Nationalist China, hopeless and totally dependant on OUTSIDE help to retake what it lost.

You don´t really need a country to sign a Peace treaty to say it is defeated. Just as UK kept fighting because it had hope the US would help, the same can be said about SU, they kept fighting because they knew OUTSIDE factors would bring Germany down, which eventually did. If it was a one front war after France fell it´s beyond shadow of doubt Germany would win later. They are beyond the Urals you say? Make bombers and destroy it. It´s not like the VVS would be in any decent shape to stop it.

So the big point isn´t even if the soviet military can´t be brought into irrelevancy (it could) the problem is if Germany had the resources to finally put it into that situation.

Also, regarding "oh Russia can´t be defeated ever" no one expected France to fall in one month either, so instead of repeating clichés people should think a bit.


I could make a long answear to this, but there are others that are much, much better on the topic then me.

I can how ever say that I think that Invader_Canuck already answeard your "What ifs". And he won that discussion with 10-0 (Fotball score (the normal fotball, not the american one)).

I can also say that the OP is since long answeard and the answear was "no". Thread lock? (even though it is highly intressting discussion).

Last but not least, there are in no way any connection between the statements "France fell quicker then some expected" and "The Soviet union are/aren't invincible".
 

Beagá

Banned
74 Badges
May 27, 2007
13.783
4.044
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For The Glory
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
Of course there is. It´s repeating cliché. Saying Russia can´t never be defeated IS cliché. What if war changed so much that that became possible?

At least Canuck can make mature discussion, which you can´t. If you can rebuke my points do it instead of trolling.

And no the OP isn´t really answered because there is a vast difference between saying that SU can end the front in Stalemate or even win the war and go all the way to Berlin without the US, and saying it needed it´s help to retake what they lost instead of being reverted to an agrarian state eventually if it didn´t want Peace anyway. If you were smart you would have noticed it.

Finally Canuck contradicts itslef because I already said that if Germany winning the war is totally implausible then there is no point in doing a WW2 game, to which he replied all sorts of "oh but if the player did that differently they could have won" without giving real input on what should be done that real life Germnay couldn´t have done as well.
 
Last edited:

Opus

Captain
78 Badges
Mar 20, 2012
483
160
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
Im not trolling. Im simply try to put it in a nice way that there is no point in you continuing this discussion, because you take details out of context and create "what ifs" out of them, where the whole context is working aginst these alternative scenarios. I_C, and others, has explaind why over and over again now. Why would I need to write another wall of text?

It's pointless. Of course it's up to you if you want to continue it, but hey, I just thought that it's worthy to point out.

The OP is answeard because the US can, with ease, build everything that it did in history and then some. So no, it should not get a buff because 1. There is no need and 2. It would greatly upset the balance of the game.

Those two things has been concluded several times already in this thread.


And it doesn't matter wheter or not something is a cliche or not. The point is, that just because one statement is true or false, that doesn't say anything about another statement.
 

Beagá

Banned
74 Badges
May 27, 2007
13.783
4.044
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For The Glory
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
The discussion started exactly because Canuck said that the soviets could "win" the war even alone, to which I totally disagree with and that Germany could only have won in 1941 (ditto). Go back some 6 pages to see how it all started as I won´t re-quote walls of text either.

My POV is clear, without outside help they would be pushed more and more until eventually losing their capacity do wage modern war due to loss of major strategic assets, thus rendering the whole point of not wanting Peace moot.
If it was in 1941, 42 or 45 I dunno, but it would happen.
 

Opus

Captain
78 Badges
Mar 20, 2012
483
160
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
I've read the entire thing already. Multiple times. It's a very interessting discussion.

In my opinion, I_C has made it clear why his wiev is more plauseble then yours. He's arguments fits together and he can back it up with hard facts. He won this one, clearly.

As for your latest post on that discussion, he has shown that LL-material was at best a very minor part of the SU forces at the time. So instead of 90 brittish inferior tanks, you would have 60 with a 30% reduction. No big difference.

As for the oil, since one of the main use for oil was completly gone (since some 20 000 tanks and 1000:s of planes where destroyed already) the impact shouldn't be as big as you seem to try to make it.

Isn't this obvious?


My POV is clear, without outside help they would be pushed more and more until eventually losing their capacity do wage modern war due to loss of major strategic assets, thus rendering the whole point of not wanting Peace moot.
If it was in 1941, 42 or 45 I dunno, but it would happen.

And there are 6 pages of well backed arguments that proves you wrong. They didn't get outside help to turn the tide. They got outside help after the tide was turned and the Germans were on the retreat allready.
 
Last edited:

Aeroclub

Major
87 Badges
Aug 15, 2012
603
1.979
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Impire
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
My POV is clear, without outside help they would be pushed more and more until eventually losing their capacity do wage modern war due to loss of major strategic assets, thus rendering the whole point of not wanting Peace moot.
If it was in 1941, 42 or 45 I dunno, but it would happen.
Keep in mind that the Soviets being "pushed more and more" through the swaths of land as large as the SU would've been a much larger drain on the German resources that on the Soviet ones (since the Russians were fighting on their home turf) - not to mention the additional strain on their military required to occupy all this land...If they physically didn't have enough troops to effectively occupy the Balkans and Greece, can you imagine what would they be able to do in SU? I'm sure that the German capacity to sustain any kind of offensive (with its costs increasing more and more as the went East) would've deteriorated long before SU would lose its capacity to "wage modern war" as you put it with all it's industry, evacuated population as well as untapped deposits of natural resources located in the Urals or beyond.
Now, getting back to the original point while bearing that in mind, I think that the American IC should not change, since increasing it would allow for delegating even more IC to their Allies, making the defeat of Germany not just inevitable, but implausibly easy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.