Shouldn't the Auriel religion be called the Aldmeri Pantheon or something?

[Lysistrata]

The difference is that The Elder Scrolls is a Bethesda product, so any retcons are legitimate if done by Bethesda. Zenimax Online are not Bethesda so their retcons are not legitimate.

It's little more than fan-fiction.

But Bethesda also worked ESO, and I find it highly unlikely that they didn't at least have a hand in creating the storyline.

I'm not sure why the discussion over ESO lore is on going. MK himself has said he considers Elder Scrolls lore to be "open source", in numerous interviews the studio manager for bethesda softworks has said how much he loves the fan fiction and "expanded universe" that fans create, and we ourselves haven't said we're not going to use ESO lore, simply that it takes last place when considering what to do with certain aspects of the mod.

I'd imagine because some people still view ESO as legitimate lore-wise because, well, it's a new game made by Bethesda and Zenimax and should be treated just like any other new game as far as lore goes. Then there's the "it's fan-fiction" camp, whose arguments are based on Zenimax playing a part in making it.

Personally, I'd love your team to adopt ESO lore, for the Longhouse Emperors and Three-Banners War, and how fun they'd be to play.

If you're asking why the discussion is happening HERE, your guess is as good as mine.

 

[FMLG]

Pete Hines implied that Bethesda Bethesda would ignore ESO.

Also what do you mean 'Bethesda also worked ESO'? They didn't do anything for ESO other than publish it. It isn't a joint venture by Zenimax Online and Bethesda, it's a game made by Zenimax Online and published by Bethesda's Publishing part.

 

[DarkReborn]

Yeah, they stated it really early on: TESO is a Bethesda game as much as Fallout New Vegas was, which was developed by Obsidian Entertainment and only published by Bethesda. It's a relief, really, knowing that Bethesda won't pay great attention (other than maybe some in-game books) to whatever sub-par lore they come up with in TESO when developing the next main TES game. MK may have said that TES lore is open source, yes, but that doesn't mean they'll add any kind of sloppy lore piece just because it's written in the same setting.
It's like if I come up with some really corny fanfiction about a love triangle between Nerevar, Dagoth Ur and Almalexia, send it to Bethesda and hope they add it in the next TES game. Not gonna happen.

I have no particular hate for the MMO genre (in fact I used to play them a lot, before I grew out of them), and I don't hate TESO because it's an MMO. As Orinsul pointed out, I hate it because what it's doing to it's setting, I won't deny that there may be some useful bits, but them being useful doesn't lessen the fact that they're awful and poorly written.

 

[Konnigratz]

Honestly, I haven't encountered anything lore-breaking so far. Sure, there's some weird things (most of which can usually be attributed to the characters saying stuff being unreliable), and the Molag Bal Planemeld stuff is something that's clearly been added onto later, but the game definitely feels like a TES game. And I've sunk about 140 hours into it already.

 

[Novacat]

Honestly, I haven't encountered anything lore-breaking so far. Sure, there's some weird things (most of which can usually be attributed to the characters saying stuff being unreliable), and the Molag Bal Planemeld stuff is something that's clearly been added onto later, but the game definitely feels like a TES game. And I've sunk about 140 hours into it already.

A lot of the really bad stuff is not apparent unless you look at the details. I know for example they butchered the lore on Khajiit, by completely retconning how Manes are selected and forgetting that Senches are a subspecies of Khajiit.

 

[Gurluas]

All official sources have marked ESO as canon. But I bet Bethesda's future games will change things so they don't conflict with former lore.
But I can assure you, the main plot, the environment and most quests and events are canon.

 

[Arakhor]

Until it's changed. Just look at star wars if you don't believe it could happen.

 

[FMLG]

All official sources have marked ESO as canon. But I bet Bethesda's future games will change things so they don't conflict with former lore.
But I can assure you, the main plot, the environment and most quests and events are canon.

What Official Sources?

 

[Novacat]

All official sources have marked ESO as canon. But I bet Bethesda's future games will change things so they don't conflict with former lore.
But I can assure you, the main plot, the environment and most quests and events are canon.

The problem is that, a significant percentage of the enviornment, quests, and events directly conflict with previous canon. That makes it inherantly unreliable. Its fairly obvious that TESO's writers have not made much attempt to read the previous canon.

 

[Gurluas]

The problem is that, a significant percentage of the enviornment, quests, and events directly conflict with previous canon. That makes it inherantly unreliable. Its fairly obvious that TESO's writers have not made much attempt to read the previous canon.

ESO has many quest designers, and some did make mistakes.
Most were small mistakes that can be fixed.

As for larger canon changes such as Altmer cities not being made out of butterflies..
Consider how much the lore of Cyrodiil changed from Morrowind to Oblivion.

Lore evolves as new installments arrive. ESO reveals a lot of useful new lore that this mod should use to grow and be better.
As for the thread.. The Altmer follow many gods, not just Auri-El. Auri-El is the Elven name for Akatosh, but they have a lot of other deities.

A bit like how Nords have many other deities and not just Shor. A more apt name would be Aldmeri Pantheon.
Or Auri-El Pantheon.

 

[FMLG]

The difference is ESO is not made by Bethesda. If Bethesda made ESO I'd agree- but they didn't.

 

[Lysistrata]

The difference is ESO is not made by Bethesda. If Bethesda made ESO I'd agree- but they didn't.

Bethesda still implicitly approved it by publishing it, though.

Honestly, I've yet to see any contradiction to pre-established canon of any real importance that can't or hasn't already been explained away.

 

[Novacat]

ESO has many quest designers, and some did make mistakes.
Most were small mistakes that can be fixed.

Many are -not- small, and generally the only solution we can come up with is to ignore them completely. My in-depth lore knowlege is mainly on the Khajiit, so I will use them as an example:
- ESO has completely screwed up the Khajiit subspecies. Between forgetting that a 'Senche' is a sentient breed of Khajiit, to trying to 'retcon' the physical differences between Khajiit as something only the Khajiit can see.
- The Mane is supposed to be born on a night when there are three moons, and there are no known instances of multiple 'manes' competing for power, but ESO retconned it to being some kind of test that dozens of Khajiit take. There is even a quest built around this.
- The differences between Anequinians and Pellitinians were almost completely removed, with the Khajiit as a whole being portrayed as hedonistic and decadent.

 

[Illanair]

Consider how much the lore of Cyrodiil changed from Morrowind to Oblivion.

Many would argue that turning Cyrodiil into High Rock wasn't exactly a great lore move...

 

[Lysistrata]

Many are -not- small, and generally the only solution we can come up with is to ignore them completely. My in-depth lore knowlege is mainly on the Khajiit, so I will use them as an example:
- ESO has completely screwed up the Khajiit subspecies. Between forgetting that a 'Senche' is a sentient breed of Khajiit, to trying to 'retcon' the physical differences between Khajiit as something only the Khajiit can see.
- The Mane is supposed to be born on a night when there are three moons, and there are no known instances of multiple 'manes' competing for power, but ESO retconned it to being some kind of test that dozens of Khajiit take. There is even a quest built around this.
- The differences between Anequinians and Pellitinians were almost completely removed, with the Khajiit as a whole being portrayed as hedonistic and decadent.

Lore changes. AFAIK, there were significant changes in Cyrodiil between Morrowind and Oblivion. Evidently, the same applies to Elsweyr in ESO.

And hell, the distinction between Anequinian and Pellitinian Khajiit (or any of the subspecies, pretty much, really) has never been made in games before, so what's so special about ESO?

 

[Novacat]

Lore changes. AFAIK, there were significant changes in Cyrodiil between Morrowind and Oblivion. Evidently, the same applies to Elsweyr in ESO.

Yes, and the lore changes done in Elsweyr were shitty lore changes, which is one of the many reasons we are choosing to not use ESO lore.

And hell, the distinction between Anequinian and Pellitinian Khajiit (or any of the subspecies, pretty much, really) has never been made in games before, so what's so special about ESO?

The subspecies bit was added in to explain the physical differences between Khajiit in Daggerfall, Arena, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. As for the differences between Anequinian and Pellitnian Khajiit, as well as the differences between subspecies, both of these were well-established in lore and were an intricate part of who the Khajiit were. They were what made the Khajiit distinct, and not just another generic catfolk. Also note that, due to the cultural differences between Anequinians and Pellitinians, it was highly unlikely to see Anequinian Khajiit outside of Elsweyr. Remember that the Khajiit in Morrowind were almost entirely slaves and ex-slaves (and thus likely have their own culture distinct from either of the Elsweyr cultures) and the Khajiit in Skyrim, consisting almost entirely of the Khajiit trade caravans, Pellitinian for that reason. Oblivion, I would prefer to ignore since cultural differences were almost entirely ignored in that game.

Infact, it is curious that you bring up Oblivion as your example considering that it was widely seen as a low point for the Elder Scrolls franchise.

 

[Gurluas]

Bethesda worked with Zenimax on ESO. And it's been stated by both Bethesda and Zenimax that ESO is canon.
As for the Khajit stuff, we've only seen a tiny part of Elweyr, for all we know, the Senche we saw were feral, and the ones used as mounts are in the south.

As for the manes...Perhaps in this case, more than one mane was born under three moons? Hence the trials to elect the new one.
To be honest, I'm not well versed into the Aldmeri lore as I've been playing in the Ebonheart pact, and the lore issues there were very minor.

I always assumed the Khajit in Morrowind were a different subspecies because they had cat paws and digitigrade feet, as opposed to the flat feet Khajit in Oblivion and Skyrim has.

Plus Black Marsh was absolutely well portrayed. I loved the lore about the old Argonian civilizations, the great Xanmeer cities, the Hist quests, the Kothringi, etc.

 

[Tempte]

Bethesda is a subsidiary of ZeniMax Media, they created ZeniMax Online just to create ESO. In this creation they hired both people from their subsidiaries and new people from the outside.

So this game was published by Bethesda Softworks and developed by a NEW development studio that was made specifically for this purpose, because Bethesda Game Studios is working on their singleplayer games.

Its not like Bethesda Softworks published it purely by financing it and made Bioware develop it. Can people just realize this please.

 

[Lexo]

Bethesda worked with Zenimax on ESO. And it's been stated by both Bethesda and Zenimax that ESO is canon.
As for the Khajit stuff, we've only seen a tiny part of Elweyr, for all we know, the Senche we saw were feral, and the ones used as mounts are in the south.

As for the manes...Perhaps in this case, more than one mane was born under three moons? Hence the trials to elect the new one.
To be honest, I'm not well versed into the Aldmeri lore as I've been playing in the Ebonheart pact, and the lore issues there were very minor.

I always assumed the Khajit in Morrowind were a different subspecies because they had cat paws and digitigrade feet, as opposed to the flat feet Khajit in Oblivion and Skyrim has.

Plus Black Marsh was absolutely well portrayed. I loved the lore about the old Argonian civilizations, the great Xanmeer cities, the Hist quests, the Kothringi, etc.

I know that sticking my kneck in this fight is a bit stupid but why not.

Having played ESO a bit it does not come accross as canon or feel like canon in the sense that the other Elder Scroll games do. This MMORPG reskined from WOW is a low point in the franchise and finaly knocked Oblivion from that spot which i had hoped they would have learned from.

This thread has been going on for ages and Novacat has been making some fair points which i dont feel you have referance the adding of ESO lore. You may notice that there is no great upswelling of revolutionary zeal to have this integrated and i may have a good reason as to why.

ESO IS CRAP.

I dont know many die hard people who played Daggerfall and Morrowind who rate this game and asking for the integration of lore from it will always be met with reluctance. I can understand why after hearing John Clease get all cheesy and Jenifer Hale do what she does every time. And god the fighting is crap. The person who thought that adding cooldowns was a good idea needs punched in the throat.

 

[Novacat]

As for the Khajit stuff, we've only seen a tiny part of Elweyr, for all we know, the Senche we saw were feral, and the ones used as mounts are in the south.

Feral. You do realize thats akin to saying there are feral Imperials, or feral Redguard, or feral Altmer. They are not 'feral', they -are- Khajiit.

As for the manes...Perhaps in this case, more than one mane was born under three moons? Hence the trials to elect the new one.

Except first edition explicitly mentions that there are no recorded instances of multiple manes competing for power.

To be honest, I'm not well versed into the Aldmeri lore as I've been playing in the Ebonheart pact, and the lore issues there were very minor.

I donno, I never played Ebonheart pact myself, but I remember hearing complaints there as well, something about "Hail Sithis" and the Dunmer freeing both Argonian and Khajiit slaves for... whatever reason... nevermind that slavery was considered an inherant part of Dunmer culture by the time of Morrowind and there was a vicious upheaval when it was eventually abolished in the 3rd and 4th era.

I always assumed the Khajit in Morrowind were a different subspecies because they had cat paws and digitigrade feet, as opposed to the flat feet Khajit in Oblivion and Skyrim has.

While it is a logical assumption, I do not believe it has been confirmed by Bethesda either way. The Khajiit of Oblivion and Skyrim never had their breed named by official sources, to my knowlege, and generally two camps emerged, one assumed that they were cathay, which are also humanoid but nothing is known beyond that, the other assumed that Bethesda just retconned suthay-rahts.

Plus Black Marsh was absolutely well portrayed. I loved the lore about the old Argonian civilizations, the great Xanmeer cities, the Hist quests, the Kothringi, etc.

It is quite possible that they came up with accurate portrayals for other races, I just know that Zenimax really screwed up the Khajiit, which is one of the reasons why im disinclined to use TESO sources.