Shouldn't shipyards accumulate know-how?

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Simon Marques

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Hello again! How do you do? I hope you are all well.

So, my question is, shouldn't shipyards accumulate know-how to improve the production efficiency of a specific type of ship?

The question is that a shipyard could as well as the industries accumulate some production efficiency, but in the game this does not happen(I find ). Wouldn't it be the case that this would be implemented in the game to improve production efficiency? And why the hell can I only assign 5 shipyards for the construction of a big ship?

For small countries (not developed) it would be interesting to add this possibility? What do you think?
 
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And why the hell can I only assign 5 shipyards for the construction of a big ship?
Because it takes time to build capital ships and you need specialized dockyards and equipment. Previously you could build something like yamato in less than a year.
 
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Because it takes time to build capital ships and you need specialized dockyards and equipment. Previously you could build something like yamato in less than a year.
The problem is that the big nations have a lot of advantage over the smaller nations on the naval issue, I think it would be good for the smaller nations to have a temporary construction bonus to help balance it better.
 
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The problem is that the big nations have a lot of advantage over the smaller nations on the naval issue, I think it would be good for the smaller nations to have a temporary construction bonus to help balance it better.

I disagree. Why would smaller nations be able to build ships at a faster rate. Historically, most ships were made by big nation then sold or given to minors. Minors already have MASSIVE buffs in hoi4, being able to field like half of the divisions of majors in some cases like hungary or romania. Personally, I'd like to seen minors NERFED in that regard by reducing the amount of industrial capacity across the board, basically making it so that building new factories costs so much that it's not worth it unless in peace time and the primary way to get more military factories would be to convert your civilian factories. That way minors stay minor, they can still get cool focuses that will help then in certain areas like getting better fighters faster and so on without making them powerhouses. It will also balance out majors in a sense that US will be way above everyone once it mobilizes it's industry for military purpose and you wont have a case where germany would be able to build more factories than US or USSR.
 
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So, my question is, shouldn't shipyards accumulate know-how to improve the production efficiency of a specific type of ship?
They could, and they did. To cite the most obvious example: it took USA shipyards 244 days to build their first "Liberty" ship; mean construction time was down to about 30-40 days apiece (across 18 shipyards) by 1943*.

Of course, this also indicates that minor countries should not be able to achieve anywhere near the efficiencies/economies of scale that the majors can.

*These figures are cited in various sources, not all of which agree with each other on construction speed. Most seem to agree that the USA built 2710 of these very basic transports across 18 shipyards over the 4-year production run, which is 1. staggering to contemplate and 2. difficult to achieve with in-game mechanics.
 
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I disagree. Why would smaller nations be able to build ships at a faster rate. Historically, most ships were made by big nation then sold or given to minors. Minors already have MASSIVE buffs in hoi4, being able to field like half of the divisions of majors in some cases like hungary or romania. Personally, I'd like to seen minors NERFED in that regard by reducing the amount of industrial capacity across the board, basically making it so that building new factories costs so much that it's not worth it unless in peace time and the primary way to get more military factories would be to convert your civilian factories. That way minors stay minor, they can still get cool focuses that will help then in certain areas like getting better fighters faster and so on without making them powerhouses. It will also balance out majors in a sense that US will be way above everyone once it mobilizes it's industry for military purpose and you wont have a case where germany would be able to build more factories than US or USSR.
I agree with you, but you're forgetting about the research slots. Minors can rush any kind of tech, and that alone is very unrealistic. The number of research slots should scale with the total number of factories the player has (Limited to 6-7 total at end game). That would make all countries balanced, and give USA a fair boots early on.

Another thing important is that, despite the major countries being able to create huge navies, most of them are limited by the Naval Treaty, which is not a true limiter, just a pay PP to build more. I think they should change the NT to incentivise the player to stop building new ships, unless he leaves the Treaty, giving a Buff to refit old ships, and a Debuff to build new ones, that can be improved by cheating the Treaty.
 
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They could, and they did. To cite the most obvious example: it took USA shipyards 244 days to build their first "Liberty" ship; mean construction time was down to about 30-40 days apiece (across 18 shipyards) by 1943*.

Are there any examples of production efficiency increasing to a similar degree with cruisers and above?
 
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Are there any examples of production efficiency increasing to a similar degree with cruisers and above?
To be fair, no power built nearly that many cruisers, battleships, or carriers, so gains in efficiency would not be as pronounced. Still, there were some gains: USS Essex (CV-9) took 15 months* from keel laying to launch, USS Franklin (CV-13) took 10 months.*

*Again, not all the sources agree. And the later builds from that class of carriers actually took longer, probably because by mid-1943 it was obvious that not nearly as many would be needed as had been ordered.
 
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In the course of the war, the truly significant examples of increased production efficiency weren't so much about the shipyards themselves, but in the design of the ships and the organisation of industrial logistics.

The Liberty ships weren't because of the shipyard workers, but because of changes in the system. The design was standardised, and several dedicated shipyards were constructed.
The Kaiser Industries yards that built the escort carriers, were similarly specialised.
The USA had some very great industrial organisers who were able to apply production line methods to shipbuilding which had traditionally been a one-off project industry, with each ship being its own project requiring its own logistics and all that.

The UK had the "War Emergency Programme" classes of destroyers that had standardised designs and plans already made.

The Germans had standardised components for the U-boats, that increased productivity.

It wasn't so much about the shipyards being able to assemble things quicker, it was more about the suppliers to the shipyards being more organised. E.g. with a standardised design, a steel mill can supply steel plates and steel sections to the correct lengths, and the shipyards just have to assemble, rather than cut steel.
 
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In the course of the war, the truly significant examples of increased production efficiency weren't so much about the shipyards themselves, but in the design of the ships and the organisation of industrial logistics.

The Liberty ships weren't because of the shipyard workers, but because of changes in the system. The design was standardised, and several dedicated shipyards were constructed.
The Kaiser Industries yards that built the escort carriers, were similarly specialised.
The USA had some very great industrial organisers who were able to apply production line methods to shipbuilding which had traditionally been a one-off project industry, with each ship being its own project requiring its own logistics and all that.

The UK had the "War Emergency Programme" classes of destroyers that had standardised designs and plans already made.

The Germans had standardised components for the U-boats, that increased productivity.

It wasn't so much about the shipyards being able to assemble things quicker, it was more about the suppliers to the shipyards being more organised. E.g. with a standardised design, a steel mill can supply steel plates and steel sections to the correct lengths, and the shipyards just have to assemble, rather than cut steel.
Although those gains were also a function of experience in shipbuilding. (And, to a certain extent, technology sharing: Liberty ships were based on a UK design, and the UK and USA were sharing designs for all sorts of components by 1943.)

Since the dockyards are not considered separately from the supply chains, and modular construction was the major breakthrough in construction speed, maybe national spirits tied to national focuses is the best way to implement this idea with the systems already in place. Which is what we have already.
 
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Well, given how MtG treated the Navy...

... I think we should all be very thankful already that the efficiency doesn't decrease over time, i.e. once you research new shells or unlock doctrines, sorta following this principle:

Norman Augustine, having demonstrated that the cost of an air-craft increased by a factor of four every ten years, famously quipped, “In the year 2054, the entire defense budget will purchase just one air-craft. This aircraft will have to be shared by the Air Force and the Navy three and one half days each per week except for leap year, when it will be made available to the Marines for the extra day.
 
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Some ramblings below - all "as best I recall" and just the thoughts of one random naval nutter :)

In terms of shipyards and efficiency, by far the greatest impact isn't due to experience with a particular type of ship (advances in technology meant there are very few examples of yards doing repeat work on HoI4-scale warships, although the Fletchers, Type VII U-boats and British war emergency destroyers (which still changed a bit over time) do provide some examples. Rather, it's the capacity of a particular nation's industrial capacity to build, at reasonable efficiency, the bits and pieces needed for a ship, and practice putting them together. Overwhelmingly, these were advantages of larger, rather than smaller nations, with established dockyard and supporting industries (as well as the yard to put things together, nations needed ordnance works for guns, electronics industries for radar and sonar, factories to build turbines, diesels or triple-expansion engines for propulsion, huge mills to roll armour for armoured ships, etc.,).

It's also important to keep in mind that in HoI4 smaller vessels, like destroyers and submarines, are still built much faster than they could actually be historically. So if some kind of multiple-run bonus was added, to align this with historical plausibility destroyers would need to take around a year (in most cases) to complete. The choice of building multiple versions of the same ship in serial becomes a lot less attractive because of the rapid changes in technology that lead to changes in design (but still makes sense in some cases, when quantity trumps quality - such as for destroyers and escort ships).

The problem is that the big nations have a lot of advantage over the smaller nations on the naval issue, I think it would be good for the smaller nations to have a temporary construction bonus to help balance it better.

So in the context of a 'balancing mechanic' for small nations, giving them an advantage in terms of shipbuilding speed would be wildly historically implausible. This doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad thing to want, but if it were me I'd suggest balancing via other means (increasing population, resource or industrial capacity at least makes sure the historical implausibility is front-and-centre, and doesn't alter the game mechanics, per se, but rather the countries using the mechanics).

That said, there's the broader question of what this balancing achieves. Do we want all nations to be equal at the start? To equally be able to achieve the same thing? There will always be a tension between historical plausibility and balancing either starting position or end-capability (and I'd suggest balancing starting position, rather than building in deus ex machina nerfs or bonuses to hypothetically level everyone out over the course of a playthrough, which would be a very challenging design and testing goal!)

They could, and they did. To cite the most obvious example: it took USA shipyards 244 days to build their first "Liberty" ship; mean construction time was down to about 30-40 days apiece (across 18 shipyards) by 1943*.

I'd caution against using mercantile build times (and practices) as a proxy for warships. Merchant ships were much less complex (and the Liberty ships in particular designed for simplicity, so they were simple even by mercantile standards to enable principles of 'multiple production' (as it's described on Frederic Lane's Ships for Victory - his history of the US Maritime Commission's shipbuilding efforts in WW2). Lane's book also shows that those 'speed of production' figures are from keel-laying to delivery, but the system of multiple production involved a lot of prefabrication such that more than half of the construction time could (the proportion varied a bit by yard and time) take place prior to keel-laying (although 80-odd days is still a very fast time to build a merchant ship). Ships for Victory has tables and charts that look at different building times for different yards at different times, and I highly recommend it if interested in the Liberty/Victory ship programs, although it is on the dryer side, and covers things like workplace relations, industrial disputes and the like (which are all factors that contribute to how fast ships can be built as well, but not factors I'd suggest modelling in HoI4 :) ).

It was also relatively inefficient - one of my favourite relevant quotes was from VADM Emory Land (in charge of the US Maritime Commission during the period), was:

"If you want fast ships, fast shipbuilding, fast women or fast horses, you pay through the nose".

This is also somewhat borne out by Ian Buxton's monograph on British Shipbuilding and Repair during World War Two, which suggests that while the US was faster in its construction of vessels, the British were more efficient (fewer person-hours per vessel). Something that holds for warships as well as merchant vessels (noting I haven't read the recently release Warship Builders, on US naval shipbuilding from 1922-1945, and I'm keen to see what this has to say on this).

But, as best I know, if we wanted to represent fast building times in HoI4 in a historically plausible way, it would require diminishing marginal returns in terms of NIC for improvements in speed (ie, 5 NIC = 100% speed, 10 NIC = 140% speed - for some completely made up numbers just to illustrate the concept - it'd take a lot more research and analysis to come up with numbers based on historical data).

Are there any examples of production efficiency increasing to a similar degree with cruisers and above?

I'm not aware of any for specific models, but as per earlier in this post, there were definitely benefits for having an established warship-building industry. However, to balance this I wouldn't suggest buffing minors, but rather nerfing their NIC productivity until they had enough warship 'runs on the board' to be considered established.

Although those gains were also a function of experience in shipbuilding. (And, to a certain extent, technology sharing: Liberty ships were based on a UK design, and the UK and USA were sharing designs for all sorts of components by 1943.)

Interestingly, in the Liberty Ship program, the fastest speeds weren't necessarily achieved by established yards - although I'd expect when it comes to warships this would generally be the case.
 
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GrandVezir

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I'd caution against using mercantile build times (and practices) as a proxy for warships.
The original question was not specific to warships:
So, my question is, shouldn't shipyards accumulate know-how to improve the production efficiency of a specific type of ship?
...but you're right: warships are different*. Especially battleships: it seems no naval power could allow itself a run of more than four or five such ships before radically changing the design enough to make a new class of it, and build times always ended up at around 2-3 years per ship, even under wartime pressure.

*With a partial exception for aircraft carriers. While a merchant ship is essentially a warehouse complex grafted onto a ship hull, a carrier is a hangar complex grafted onto a ship hull, with the top deck kept mostly clear to serve as an airfield. The design requirements are so similar, in fact, that essentially all escort carriers were either redesigned merchant hulls or straight-up conversions.

Edit to add: This is probably why escort carriers will never be added to the game. Any player would be sorely tempted to build a zillion transports from 1936, then convert whatever percentage was most hilarious starting in 1939 to have meme-worthy numbers of escort carriers in every sea zone.
 
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Edit to add: This is probably why escort carriers will never be added to the game. Any player would be sorely tempted to build a zillion transports from 1936, then convert whatever percentage was most hilarious starting in 1939 to have meme-worthy numbers of escort carriers in every sea zone.

I'd argue that escort carriers are still fine in-game, considering that they aren't as cheap as people make them out to be (I doubt the US can make its WWII historic 10 BBs, 2 BCs, 21 CVs, 6 CVLs, 45 cruisers, nearly 400 destroyers, and well over 100 submarines, add in thousands of convoys and hundreds of escorts and minesweepers, and still field 100+ escort carriers with in-game production figures). Even at 2000 IC per escort carrier, you're going to need 5 to match an airfield for aircraft efficiency, and carrier aircraft are worse than land aircraft (both in range and in stats). Add in the extra escorts to guard 4 carriers, and for massed carriers you'd actually be better off with fleet carriers (they wouldn't need as many escorts, so 2 1936 CVs only need 6-8 destroyers to escort them in theory, rather than 5 CVEs needing 15-20, or a production difference of ~23,000 IC for the fleet carrier group versus ~40,000 for the same-sized airwing with escorted CVEs). CVEs likely would end up being deployed in safe waters instead, or built to take advantage of existing naval superiority (when large numbers of escorts wouldn't be necessary). Also consider the mild issue of air attack on unarmored, minimalistic escort carriers compared to fleet carriers (even unarmored US carriers with proper damage control were incredibly-difficult to sink).

A big thing for escort carriers too that people forget: they usually couldn't carry torpedoes, so they would have far less utility in naval battles than you'd expect (between no torpedoes, no speed, no armor, and almost no firepower, they're mostly just big targets in a naval battle; those fighting at Samar used fragmentation bombs and depth charges for the most part in their air attacks). Their utility was mostly for ASW or land bombardment, since torpedoes are huge and rooms to carry them take a lot of space (on an already cramped ship).
 
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Axe99

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The original question was not specific to warships:

Aye, sorry - I just assumed with the 'balance' angle, they were thinking about projecting naval power, thus warships - but you're quite right, they didn't specify.

One other thing I didn't mention earlier, but when looking at ship building times, things like increased shifts during wartime (speeds things up), and bomb damage, shortages of material and manufacturing capacity, and diversions of work to repair damaged vessels (slows things down) need to be borne in mind when looking at ship build times.

*With a partial exception for aircraft carriers. While a merchant ship is essentially a warehouse complex grafted onto a ship hull, a carrier is a hangar complex grafted onto a ship hull, with the top deck kept mostly clear to serve as an airfield. The design requirements are so similar, in fact, that essentially all escort carriers were either redesigned merchant hulls or straight-up conversions.

There's a huge difference between merchant ships and escort carriers, escort carriers and light fleet carriers, and light fleet carriers and full fleet carriers, so I'd suggesting caution in how you apply your ideas here. Looking at the Casablanca class (the largest class of escort carriers, produced at the same yards as Liberty and Victory ships, and based on a mercantile hull), you're looking at 3.5 months between keel laying and completion for the fastest (and 9 or so months for the longest) - and given they were built using the same principles of multiple production, that may well also involve considerable prefabrication prior to laying down the keel. The thing that we do get with escort carriers, though, is that they were built in serial enough to give some idea of improvements in efficiency from doing so. Comparing them with Liberty ships (all figures from Ships for Victory)

  • An escort carrier (data are probably from Henry Kaiser's West Coast yards, but SfV isn't entirely clear, but I'd guess the Casablanca Class) took 2,650,000 person-hours to construct the first time on the ways, reduced to 1,300,000 person-hours the fourth time.
  • A Liberty ship took 1,250,000 person-hours the first time on the ways, and about 450,000 on the 20th round (noting that the vast majority of efficiency improvements were made in the first few ships, so there's not likely to be a huge improvement from the 4th through 20th round, although it varied a bit by yard).
These figures suggest that the cost of producing an escort carrier (and a very basic one - the Royal Navy did considerable extra work on the US escort carriers it received, as they didn't meet RN safety requirements for fuel handling and other things) was 2-3 times that of a Liberty Ship, and later escort carriers were 'only' produced at 50 per cent of the time of the first ones, compared with later Liberty Ships only taking 36 per cent of the time of the earlier vessels.

I'd expect (but this is speculation, not sourced, and could be off) that as ships became complex, multiple-production techniques became less applicable, so moving from things like reciprocating engines (Casablance Class) to low-powered turbines (Commencement Bay Class) is likely to increase time and reduce efficiency gains, as are improvements in aircraft, fuel and ammunition handling arrangements (for example, the Commencement Bays had two lifts, to the Casablanca's one), command and control installations (CICs, radar, etc.,), workshops to maintain aircraft and their engines, and increased defensive weaponry (both type and its supporting kit like radar and directors). Proper aircraft carriers are much more than a big room for aircraft plopped on top of a hull. For very basic conversions like the Merchant Aircraft Carriers though (MAC ships), they were just hangars on top of hulls (and sometimes just flight decks).

In general, my gut feeling (for what it's worth, which isn't much) would be that the efficiency gains for more basic escort carriers would be noticeable (but they should have a pretty low reliability stat), but it should diminish rapidly for more complex escort carriers and far moreso for light fleet carriers, and full fleet carriers.
 
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If I understood all the comments up to this point well, efficiency was actually obtained and production time could be reduced, but at the same time that production efficiency was gained, there were efficiency losses every time new technologies were added to the project. So it makes sense that if there is no change in a battleship project, there would be gains in production efficiency that would reduce construction time to some extent. The gains are very limited and the larger the ship and the more complex the project, the less gains are obtained.
 

Axe99

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If I understood all the comments up to this point well, efficiency was actually obtained and production time could be reduced, but at the same time that production efficiency was gained, there were efficiency losses every time new technologies were added to the project. So it makes sense that if there is no change in a battleship project, there would be gains in production efficiency that would reduce construction time to some extent. The gains are very limited and the larger the ship and the more complex the project, the less gains are obtained.

TL : DR: "there were very minor gains in efficiency, but if we're looking for a historically plausible prop for minor nations, this isn't the place to look - the gains were only realised by major nations that already had advanced shipbuilding capabilities, and they were so small they're not really worth worrying about. But if you're not worried about historical plausibility, then it's a perfectly reasonable game mechanic suggestion :)".

Long version: I'm a bit tired now, so this may be a bit all of the shop, but as best I can manage (and as best I understand...):

There was - as well as this, for things like the liberty ships, and then some elements of at least later British escort ships (and possibly US as well, but my memory's super-hazy on that right now), as well as the Type XXI, there was some application of modular construction techniques - far less elaborate than those used today, but still a step forward in construction times, and eventually efficiency (although, as per the Liberty Ship example below, not always, and perhaps not at all in the HoI4 time period) - although my 2 cents would be to have this as a modifier improving construction speed for escorts, subs and merchants, rather than efficiency gains between models (and, particularly for the Type XXI subs, there were substantial teething troubles implementing this approach).

Note it's not just technologies, but also design - even using existing technologies for a vessel with a different purpose (for example, the Tribal class destroyers, as opposed to the 'standard type' being built by the British, didn't use a lot of new technology (iirc....), but as it was a different design, the existing technology was used differently (and different elements of the technology were emphasized).

Even with very similar designs, outside of a very small number of 'war emergency' situations, there isn't a huge amount of evidence for large "efficiency" improvements (and, as noted above, these were likely the opposite of efficient, but rather fast times achieved by intensive uses of resources inefficiently - even the most efficient Liberty ship times were about 29 per cent more expensive than similar (and slightly more capable) designs built using normal production techniques and intensity*). Thus, even though British yards had been building destroyers that were incrementally similar for 12 years, the build times weren't much faster later than they were earlier. For example, the first British A-class destroyer, Acasta, was laid down by John Brown on 13 Aug 1928 and commissioned on 11 Feb 1930, about 18 months. John Brown's last of the pre-war 'standard' types, Ilex, was laid down on 16 Mar 1936 and commissioned on 7 July 1937 (16 months) - and John Brown built eight vessels of this broadly similar design (in four lots of two) over this period.

For a battleship project, the size and complexity of the build, combined with the time it takes, and the changes in technology over the period, would likely mean any benefit from efficiency is more than offset by the second battleship (produced perhaps 10 per cent quicker?) being a substantially less able ship that it could have been were a more optimised design used. I'm not aware of an example of battleships being built in serial to speed up construction times in the WW2 period, but rather to avoid the long periods of time involved in designing new vessels (ie, the US decided to build more Iowas than it originally planned not because it expected later Iowas to be cheaper (they were still being built in parallel, more or less, rather than one-after-the-other), but because they'd received financing to build more battleships, and waiting until another design had been developed would significantly delay the time at which the new battleship could be operational.

For most minor nations (the only example I can think of that would be in with a shot would be Sweden and perhaps the Netherlands - although as per the above, my brain's pretty hazy right now), the idea that they could build a battleship at all is pretty 'adventurous' - and any such vessel would likely take many years to complete. Taking destroyer build times in the HoI4 time period for minor nations, and noting that battleships are exponentially harder to build, would suggest that if a minor tried to build battleships in serial, they wouldn't be able to finish their second before 1948 rolled around. For examples of build times of minor nation destroyers (times are laid down to commissioned):
- Netherlands, Van Galen class, Van Ness, 15 Aug 1928 to 12 Mar 1931 (31 months)
- Brazil, Acre class, Araguaya, 20 Jul 1940 to 3 Sept 1949 (110 months - the time was extended due to interruptions in the availability of technical assistance from the UK, and changes to the design to incorporate technical assistance from the US instead - but that only underlines the difficulties Brazil had in building these ships).
- Romania, Regele Ferdinand class, Regele Ferdinand, June 1927 to 7 Sep 1930 (39 months)
- Sweden, Oland class, Oland, laid down at some point in 1943, commissioned on 15 Dec 1947 (minimum 48 months - and its sister was also laid down in 1943 and not commissioned until 31 Jan 1949)

Compare this with the 18 and 16 months for the British destroyers above, and it's clear that even for substantially smaller and less complicated vessels, minors found it took far longer to build them (and often required foreign assistance just to achieve that). It's not really plausible that a minor nation would be able to build back-to-back battleships during the period, and if they did build them to the same design, there's a fair chance the second ship would be pushing obsolescence when it was completed.

* This is a comparison between the 350,000 person-hours to build an "Empire" type freighter by the UK, compared with 450,000 at the 'most efficient' end of the Liberty-ship person-hours curve - the first 'round on the ways' for a Liberty Ship took 1,250,000 person-hours so, while still quicker than an Empire freighter, took over three times as much labour). Liberty ship figures from Ships for Victory, Empire freighter figures from Buxton's Warship Building and Repair in the Second World War.
 
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For most minor nations (the only example I can think of that would be in with a shot would be Sweden and perhaps the Netherlands - although as per the above, my brain's pretty hazy right now), the idea that they could build a battleship at all is pretty 'adventurous' - and any such vessel would likely take many years to complete. Taking destroyer build times in the HoI4 time period for minor nations, and noting that battleships are exponentially harder to build, would suggest that if a minor tried to build battleships in serial, they wouldn't be able to finish their second before 1948 rolled around. For examples of build times of minor nation destroyers (times are laid down to commissioned):

Technically three minor powers built proper dreadnoughts (or in the Dutch case, battlecruisers), but all with caveats:
1.) The Dutch battlecruisers were incomplete, and were to use German 28cm guns. They also had no prior experience with large warships, since their earlier "battleships" had been around 5,000 tons. Their WWI dreadnought designs were never laid down.
2.) Spain's battleships were built with substantial foreign assistance and foreign design companies, although they were also built in Spanish yards.
3.) Austria-Hungary's battleships (3 Austrian and 1 Hungarian), while entirely native, used yards in Istria which are Italian in 1936, as well as Czech guns. Working out a way of making that arrangement work in the 1930s is complicated :p

Turkey also produced about the only pre-dreadnought of the minor powers, but it also had the distinction of having fatal complications cancel its construction. The Swedes made fairly-large coastal defense ships, but never built any dreadnoughts or pre-dreadnoughts (the Sveriges still displaced under 10,000 tons). By 1936, I wouldn't put it past Spain, the Netherlands, or Sweden to at least attempt to build battleships, but generally-speaking these designs would be heavily-reliant on foreign equipment (like using German guns in the Dutch Design 1047 BCs). All three of these have at least been keeping up with cruiser construction, so they know how to make reasonably-long ships and large engines.
 
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