Shouldn't Hinduism be divided between Brahamism and Bhagavata during the time period?

[Dan the cynical barbarian]

During the time the game takes place Hinduism would be better represented if it was divided between the traditional elitist Vedic religion and the rising mass movement Bhagavata which would be competing against one another and i feel this difference and events should be represented.

Bhagavata - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Historically, Bhagavatism corresponds to the development of a popular theistic movement in India, departing from the elitist sacrificial rites of Vedism, and initially focusing on the worship of the Vrishni hero Vāsudeva in the region of Mathura. It later assimilated into the concept of Narayana where Krishna is conceived as svayam bhagavan. According to some historical scholars, worship of Krishna emerged in the 1st century BC. However, Vaishnava traditionalists place it in the 4th century BC.

It is believed that Bhagavatas borrowed or shared the attribute or title Purusa of their monotheistic deity from the philosophy of Sankhya. The philosophy was formulated by the end of the 4th century BC and as time went other names such as Narayana were applied to the main deity of Krishna-Vāsudeva. The association of the Sun-bird Garuda with the "Devadeva" ("God of Gods") Vāsudeva in the Heliodorus pillar (113 BCE) suggests that the Bhagavat cult of human deities had already absorbed the Sun-god Vishnu, an ancient Vedic deity. Slightly later, the Nagari inscription also shows the incorporation of the Brahmanical deity Narayana into the heroe-cult of Bhagavatism. Vishnu would much later become prominent in this construct, so that by the middle of the 5th century CE, during the Gupta period, the term Vaishnava would replace the term Bhagavata to describe the followers of this cult, and Vishnu would now be more popular then Vāsudeva.

 

[Hertyeer]

There needs to be some expansion and rework on how imperator religions work overall, another religion that should be represented in the game is the Babylonian religion separately as it was extremely influential up until Sassanid times

 

[Mackus]

Probably not.

Bhagavatism should be represented by it's own special cult. Because it's not completely different religion, just a specific set of practices of subgroup. Which game represents as cults.

 

[Nostalgium]

I agree that different practices in the same religion should be represented through deities and cults rather than different religions altogether, but what I would like to see perhaps is some mechanic to better represent syncretic religion. What we have today is easily some of the best we have in Paradox, but I feel it's a bit... odd I suppose that I can assimilate people by worshipping their deities, then once they're safe and sound and Hellenic I can swap back over to worshipping Zeus in all four slots no problem. Like a bait-and-switch with your whole faith, without it leaving any lasting impression on the way we worship.

 

[Torugu]

I agree that different practices in the same religion should be represented through deities and cults rather than different religions altogether, but what I would like to see perhaps is some mechanic to better represent syncretic religion. What we have today is easily some of the best we have in Paradox, but I feel it's a bit... odd I suppose that I can assimilate people by worshipping their deities, then once they're safe and sound and Hellenic I can swap back over to worshipping Zeus in all four slots no problem. Like a bait-and-switch with your whole faith, without it leaving any lasting impression on the way we worship.

I mean, you can't do that. Which is the problem, really.

Non-state religion deity in the pantheon gives a massive, global malus to conversion speed. That combined with religious conversion being basically a requirement for cultural conversion means it's almost never a good idea to have non-state religion deities.

I love the idea of creating a syncretic pantheon my mixing different deities, but in it's current implementation it doesn't work well with the binary nature of "state religion".

 

[Nostalgium]

I mean, you can't do that. Which is the problem, really.

Non-state religion deity in the pantheon gives a massive, global malus to conversion speed. That combined with religious conversion being basically a requirement for cultural conversion means it's almost never a good idea to have non-state religion deities.

I love the idea of creating a syncretic pantheon my mixing different deities, but in it's current implementation it doesn't work well with the binary nature of "state religion".

If you go for Assimilation First, sure. But in many situations, that's not ideal, and you might instead want to integrate that culture because you need them not to rebel, you need the extra levies, whatever. And since you're then not converting them anyway, you might as well adapt a few of their deities to make them happier. This is mostly pronounced if you play a relatively minor nation in a crossroads of cultures - like say, Armenia. The conversion malus isn't so massive that it can't be overcome, anyway - especially once you unlock the Religious Conversion laws which lets you straight up blitz-prozelytize your Empire in a matter of decades.

 

[Torugu]

If you go for Assimilation First, sure. But in many situations, that's not ideal, and you might instead want to integrate that culture because you need them not to rebel, you need the extra levies, whatever. And since you're then not converting them anyway, you might as well adapt a few of their deities to make them happier. This is mostly pronounced if you play a relatively minor nation in a crossroads of cultures - like say, Armenia. The conversion malus isn't so massive that it can't be overcome, anyway - especially once you unlock the Religious Conversion laws which lets you straight up blitz-prozelytize your Empire in a matter of decades.

The cost for changing deities and integrating cultures is massive, while the benefits of having a foreign deity in your pantheon is negligible. You are much better of just getting started on conversions as soon as possible. Of course you might still want to integrate a culture to get the extra levies, but that doesn't require accepting their religion.

 

[Magnar]

Considering Porus' vanguard is attested to have Herakles on its banner and herakles could very likely have been the greek interpretation of krishna/balarama (his brother) would indicate that there was potentially krishna worship well into the 4th C BC.

If this was indeed krishna/balarama, it would mean that the spread of krishna worship would have occured a significant time earlier such that it had spread from the mathura area to punjab.

 

[Dan the cynical barbarian]

I agree that different practices in the same religion should be represented through deities and cults rather than different religions altogether, but what I would like to see perhaps is some mechanic to better represent syncretic religion. What we have today is easily some of the best we have in Paradox, but I feel it's a bit... odd I suppose that I can assimilate people by worshipping their deities, then once they're safe and sound and Hellenic I can swap back over to worshipping Zeus in all four slots no problem. Like a bait-and-switch with your whole faith, without it leaving any lasting impression on the way we worship.

The game fails to represent the syncretism of the time i agree, as said above the Indo-Greeks often associated their deities and rituals with the Hindu and Buddhist deities and rituals also the Indians would also adopt in part Greek arts and customs which lead to the famous Greco-Buddhism period.

Greco-Buddhism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org