Shouldn't higher level buildings be cheaper if you already had a lower level building?

[fleetothemoon]

Currently, you pay the full cost for building higher level buildings even when you already have its lower level counterpart built. This is despite the fact that the higher level building automatically obsoletes the lower level one.

I can understand if this was only the case for forts, manpower and forcelimit buildings etc, since those have some inherent non-economic value to them. In the case of forts, sometimes you may actually want to build lower level ones since they cost less maintenance.

But from a gameplay perspective, this makes less sense for economic buildings.

Let's just look at the trade power buildings, since they are the most glaring example, with three levels of buildings that cost exponentially more but provide diminishing returns.

You would build a marketplace for 75 ducat (+50% tradepower).
Then later you would upgrade it to trade depot for 225 ducat (+another 50% tradepower).
Then you would upgrade it one last time to stock exchane for 300 ducats (+25% trade power).

That's a total of 600 ducats there if you wanted to level your buildings all the way. Yet, you can just build a brand new stock exchange somewhere else for only 300 ducats once it is unlocked.

What this also means is that most of the time, there is very little incentive to upgrade to stock exchange from a trade depot. You get a meagre 25% bonus slapped on top of the 100% bonus you already had at the cost of 300 ducats. 25% may sound like a lot, but it really is not.

To put it in perspective, let's just use a well-developed Venice that has 40 total development as an example. A 40 total development Venice would have 36 base trade power (16 from development, 20 from center of trade). Even for a such a well-developed CoT, 25% is only NINE TRADE POWER. You're spending 300 ducats for 9 trade power. You're better off building more light ships bro!

Suffice to say, there is very little incentive for anyone to upgrade a trade depot to a stock exchange. Like, no really, there is no reason, no, seriously, not even in Constantinople.

Now, 75 ducats for a 25% increase is reasonable, and that's the tradeoff if you were to build brand new stock exchange instead of a brand new trade depot. However, if you already have a trade depot in place, then the tradeoff is 300 ducats for a 25% increase. Very, very poor deal.

Now, unless if we don't want players to build stock exchange when they already had a trade depot or if we just want to give players a pointless money sink that will never return their costs (and they'll likely never even find out), then it's fine the way things are.

Otherwise, the upgrade from trade depot to stock exchange should only cost 75 ducats.

 

[Cragspyder]

I agree with you, and I was surprised this wasn't the case myself actually.

However, it is silly to just wait for the Stock Exchange as opposed to building the Marketplace, because the Marketplace is available like 150-200 years earlier I believe? Its tech 4 for Market, tech 14 for Depot and tech 22 for Stock Exchange.

You make quite a bit of money from the Marketplace over the 200 years it takes to get the Stock exchange. In fact:

Let's say in a province with a decent trade good, the extra 50% Trade Power results in an extra 1/3 ducat a month, thats still an extra 792 ducats you wouldn't have if you just waited.

0.33 ducats x 12 months x 200 years = 792 ducats, so it pays the 600 ducats total for all three buildings if you wanted plus an extra 192 ducats beside.

I guess you are assuming -25% build costs as well: at the regular costs the Marketplace almost pays for the other upgrades on its own (short 8 ducats). Or do things cost differently in Common Sense versus just the patch? My costs are 100/300/400.

And thats not counting if you upgrade to the trade depot 100 years in, with those numbers i imagine it would be 0.66 ducats for (lets say) the second 100 years resulting in 1188 ducats total by the time you build the stock exchange, which minus the 600 gold for the buildings results in 588 ducats to spend over that time, or 488 at the base building costs.

Of course I have no idea if 0.33 ducats a month is realistic, maybe on a centre of trade or something, I haven't gone into the game to test it, I am just doing maths. If the trade power adds only 0.2 of a ducat you only make 720 ducats over the 200 years, assuming again you upgrade to the trade depot first thing, and with 0.1 ducats you only make 360.

People like to look at how long it takes for the building to pay itself off and they are probably people who do real economics so trust them over me. With the 0.33 example (increasing to 0.825 ducats a month with the Stock Exchange assuming everything is equal), it takes 30 years to pay itself off (make 300 ducats) as opposed to 37 years at 0.66 without it (and you make a spare 300 ducats). Again that's assuming the Stock Exchange costs 300 instead of 400.

Of course, it gets all screwed up because trade keeps improving with more diplo tech, trade goods change in value, you wont be able to build in every province immediately upon getting the tech, building costs can be reduced, your light ships can (and likely will) be sunk instantly by Ottoman galleys, etc. My maths are not stronk enough for all that.

However, when I look at it, the Market has already paid the entire upgrade off (720 ducats, or 1188 if you get the Trade Depot right away) and if you want more cash you can get it.

However, like I said, I do agree. Even those of us that hate math can see that getting the Stock Exchange by replacing buildings might only be worth it in the very best provinces, especially since you may have only 75 years or less before the end of the game.

Of course, upgrading the other buildings have different benefits and the non-economic one, like the now-essential manpower upgrade buildings, are hard to quantify. Its hard to tell if you'll need a spare 300 ducats 30 years from now or an extra Cavalryman (maintenence cost) starting right now.

 

[fleetothemoon]

However, it is silly to just wait for the Stock Exchange as opposed to building the Marketplace, because the Marketplace is available like 150-200 years earlier I believe? Its tech 4 for Market, tech 14 for Depot and tech 22 for Stock Exchange.

You make quite a bit of money from the Marketplace over the 200 years it takes to get the Stock exchange. In fact:

Let's say in a province with a decent trade good, the extra 50% Trade Power results in an extra 1/3 ducat a month, thats still an extra 792 ducats you wouldn't have if you just waited.

0.33 ducats x 12 months x 200 years = 792 ducats, so it pays the 600 ducats total for all three buildings if you wanted plus an extra 192 ducats beside.

I am not arguing that it's not worth building market place, or even trade depot before stock exchange is unlocked.

I actually believe that building both market place and trade depot would be profitable if you build them on anything that has high absolute trade values pre-modifiers. I mean, using the Venice example, 300 ducats for 36 trade power? I would think that's a pretty good deal, since it is only about 100 ducats more than its 10 lightship equivalent but at least it is there to stay.

What annoys me though, is that the cost of building a brand new stock exchange is the same cost as upgrading a trade depot.

You already have all these trade depots in your high trade value provinces, so when the stock exchange gets unlocked, you really have to question whether spending another 300 ducats for what is essentially 2-3 light ships is worth it. The answer is that it usually it is not. 9 trade power is really nothing, considering that total trade power in each node has inflated substantially in the recent version.

I guess you are assuming -25% build costs as well: at the regular costs the Marketplace almost pays for the other upgrades on its own (short 8 ducats). Or do things cost differently in Common Sense versus just the patch? My costs are 100/300/400.

You are right. My mistake... I actually forgot that I took the economic idea group. The problem turned out to be worse than I originally thought... 400 ducats for 9 trade power? Seriously.

People like to look at how long it takes for the building to pay itself off and they are probably people who do real economics so trust them over me. With the 0.33 example (increasing to 0.825 ducats a month with the Stock Exchange assuming everything is equal), it takes 30 years to pay itself off (make 300 ducats) as opposed to 37 years at 0.66 without it (and you make a spare 300 ducats). Again that's assuming the Stock Exchange costs 300 instead of 400.

Of course I have no idea if 0.33 ducats a month is realistic, maybe on a centre of trade or something, I haven't gone into the game to test it, I am just doing maths. If the trade power adds only 0.2 of a ducat you only make 720 ducats over the 200 years, assuming again you upgrade to the trade depot first thing, and with 0.1 ducats you only make 360.

People like to look at how long it takes for the building to pay itself off and they are probably people who do real economics so trust them over me. With the 0.33 example (increasing to 0.825 ducats a month with the Stock Exchange assuming everything is equal), it takes 30 years to pay itself off (make 300 ducats) as opposed to 37 years at 0.66 without it (and you make a spare 300 ducats). Again that's assuming the Stock Exchange costs 300 instead of 400.

Of course, it gets all screwed up because trade keeps improving with more diplo tech, trade goods change in value, you wont be able to build in every province immediately upon getting the tech, building costs can be reduced, your light ships can (and likely will) be sunk instantly by Ottoman galleys, etc. My maths are not stronk enough for all that.

However, when I look at it, the Market has already paid the entire upgrade off (720 ducats, or 1188 if you get the Trade Depot right away) and if you want more cash you can get it.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here exactly, so I'm going to rely on the bolded part as the cue that you are trying to say that upgrading trade depot to stock exchange may occasionally be worth it since market and trade depot already paid for themselves by then. I apologize before hand, if I misunderstood what you said.

Anyway, upgrading trade depot to stock exchange cost 400 ducats (as noted by you that I forgot about the -25% build cost I got from ideas).

Let's go with the example where you can earn 0.33 ducats a month from market place; I think that's actually quite high and optimistic. To earn 0.33 ducats a month with only 18 trade power (using the Venice example) is very unlikely.

To put things in perspective, let's assume that we got a trade income bonus of 100%. For 18 trade power (using Venice example) to earn you 0.33 ducats per month, it would need to be built in a Venice where the node has a total income of 22 ducats and a total trade power of 200.

I can assure you that any European trade node that pulls in 22 ducats of total income, have far more than 200 trade power. I'm just looking at a Genoa node that retains 31 ducats in 1688. It has 720 trade power. 18 trade power would give you 0.0155 ducats per month and this is taking into consideration of +100% trade income bonus where throughout more than the first half of the game, you will actually have less.

Suffice to say, 0.33 ducats per month from building a market place is very optimistic, but for the sake of the argument, let's just go with that.

If you can earn 0.33 ducats a month from market place (+50% tradepower), then this would you mean you gain an additional 0.165 ducats from upgrading a trade depot (+100% tradepower) to stock exchange (+125% tradepower) as that nets in an additional 25% bonus. 400 ducats divided by 0.165 which is 202 years.

Stock exchange gets unlocked at tech 22, or roughly about the year 1687 (http://www.eu4wiki.com/Technology#Diplomatic_technologies). The game ends at 1821. 1821 - 1687 is 134. So by the time you can build stock exchange, you have about 134 years left in the game. In other words, even given this highly optimistic scenario where +25% trade bonus can net you 0.165 ducats a month, you would still never return the costs.

 

[Cragspyder]

Well i guess i mucked up my math...no surprise there. But if yours is right, and i imagine it is, then your have the facts there; Stock Exchange is never worth the money when upgrading.

Perhaps it is intended to build it in a recently conquered trade province that has no trade building, but this seems not only niche but also not very transparent to the player.

 

[s1234567890m]

That's a total of 600 ducats there if you wanted to level your buildings all the way. Yet, you can just build a brand new stock exchange somewhere else for only 300 ducats once it is unlocked.

Possibly the devs were aiming for diminishing returns?

 

[Cragspyder]

Possibly the devs were aiming for diminishing returns?

I believe you but according to fleettothemoon's math the returns arent just diminishing but nonexistent...you end up with more money if you dont build the exchange at all.

 

[ChildeR]

I expected higher level buildings to require the lower level one like before, so I was a bit surprised. Not sure if it requires any changes, though. Seems like it could result in more interesting choices than if they had to be built in order or gave a discount. Haven't played enough yet to be sure.

 

[s1234567890m]

To put it in perspective, let's just use a well-developed Venice that has 40 total development as an example. A 40 total development Venice would have 36 base trade power (16 from development, 20 from center of trade). Even for a such a well-developed CoT, 25% is only NINE TRADE POWER. You're spending 300 ducats for 9 trade power. You're better off building more light ships bro!

But are you considering the maintenance and repairing costs of the lightships?

One is a one of payment for an indestructible building (unless the player hits the X to free up a building slot) that multiplies a variable number (TP) the other for a continual payment gives a vulnerable but flexible fixed amount of TP. Eventually the values will equalize and the building will be better return.

Seems like a case of short term investment versus long term, but I could be wrong about how LS interacts with TP.

 

[WoollyMammoth]

Mmm, you have to tear down the old building (if replacing it, or give it a new use), have an architect design the plans, hire the builders, get the materials, etc.

So there is a case to be made for there being no reduction in cost because there is an existing building.

 

[Wizzington]

Yeah, we're changing this in the future.

 

[fleetothemoon]

But are you considering the maintenance and repairing costs of the lightships?

One is a one of payment for an indestructible building (unless the player hits the X to free up a building slot) that multiplies a variable number (TP) the other for a continual payment gives a vulnerable but flexible fixed amount of TP. Eventually the values will equalize and the building will be better return.

Seems like a case of short term investment versus long term, but I could be wrong about how LS interacts with TP.

If you read my post, you would had noted that the cost of building a stock exchange by the time you can build them is so high that you will likely never get the returns through the remaining duration of the gameplay. That's the problem.

Mmm, you have to tear down the old building (if replacing it, or give it a new use), have an architect design the plans, hire the builders, get the materials, etc.

So there is a case to be made for there being no reduction in cost because there is an existing building.

True, I can totally understand it from a "it makes sense though" way. But it doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective.

Yeah, we're changing this in the future.

w00t