Shouldn't cavalry loot more and faster than infantry?

[Seraphithan]

Ohhh.. though you can see right information at eu4wiki, you perfectly failed to know exact information.

Cavalry has 0.00 fire bonus at mil tech 1-10.
Cavalry has 1.00 shock bonus at mil tech 2-7, 2.00 at 8-16.

Infantry has 0.25 fire at 1-6, 0.35 at 7, 0.60 at 8-13.
Infantry has 0.50 shock at 2-4, 0.65 at 5, 0.95 at 6-10.

So, at 2-7, cavalry has 0.00/1.00.
ar 8-10, cavalry as 0.00/2.00

At 2-4, infantry has 0.25/0.50, at 5, infantry has 0.25/0.65, at 6, infantry has 0.25/0.95, at 7, infantry has 0.35/0.95, at 8-10, infantry has 0.60/0.95.

Western tech cavalry has 3 pips at 1-9, 8 pips at 10-13.

Wedtern tech infantry has 2 pips at 1-4, 3 pips at 5-8, 5 pips at 9-11.



So, tell me. Exact what 'sum of modifiers' did you see? Do you earn benefit from 0.05 more shock bonus for cavalry before 8? Can't you see 0.25-0.60 fire bonus for infantry? Can't you see that infantry has same pips at 5-8 and 2 more pips at 9? Don't you know that cavalry is 2.5 time expensive than infantry??????????

PLEASE, don't say anything if you know nothing and don't have will to find exact information.

Total pip numbers are misleading if you want to compare damage potential. Up until level 9 infantry has less shock pips total than cavalry and even at 9 cav has more shock after modifiers. Even the fire modifier for infantry isn't really relevant that early, if you look at the casualty numbers during a fight the shock phase will pretty much always be in the hundreds and in large engagements can even reach thousands with lucky rolls. Fire on the other hand will struggle to reach 100+. This is compounded by players, rightly, favouring shock generals early on.

 

[happymix91]

Total pip numbers are misleading if you want to compare damage potential. Up until level 9 infantry has less shock pips total than cavalry and even at 9 cav has more shock after modifiers. Even the fire modifier for infantry isn't really relevant that early, if you look at the casualty numbers during a fight the shock phase will pretty much always be in the hundreds and in large engagements can even reach thousands with lucky rolls. Fire on the other hand will struggle to reach 100+. This is compounded by players, rightly, favouring shock generals early on.

Western cavalry(western medieval night) at 1-9 has 1 shock attack pip and 1 defense pip, and 1 moral attack pip. Western infantry(longbow) at 5-8 has 1 shock attack pip and 1 morale attack pip, 1 morale defense pip.

Infantry has 0.95 bonus at 6-10. So, do you think that 1 attack pip and 1.00 bonus kill greatly more than 1 attack pip and 0.95 bonus? You should keep in mind that cavalry is 2.5 times expensive. Though cavavlry has more maneuver, using cavalry makes player have short line than enemey. Cavalry has 2 shock at 8, but infantry has 2 more pips than cavalry at 9.

And for fire, it is weak at early time because cavalry has no bonus modifier. No pips for each other means that 40 base casualty, and it is multiplied by 1.25 at mil tech 1-5, 1.35 at 7, 1.60 at 8 for infantry, but 1.0 for cavalry.

For shock, multiplied by 1.50 at 3-4, 1.65 at 5, 1.95 at 6 for infantry(it suffers more casualty at shock phase, but less moral damage than cavalry), and 2.0 for cavalry until 7. Shock is better than fire at early game, and shock-mained general is got at early game, but it doesn't mean that cavalry has advantage at early game. Cavalry has its use at mid game.

Especially for Western nations, no need for cavalry more than 2 in each army.

 

[lolada]

From what i remember when i looked at this, western cavalry is significantly weaker than any other cavalry in the game. That is due to modifiers and bad pips for western cavalry.

On level 6 and 7 western infantry does more damage than cavalry thanks to multipliers, its simply superior. Non-western nations make up for it since their cavalry has more pips than infantry. Irony is that *western* cavalry is better used between levels 10-22 rather than in first 10 level.

Another thing to know is that Shock phase does more damage because infantry also deals crapton of shock damage. For almost whole game infantry deals more shock than fire damage, only in late techs (20+) fire becomes stronger for infantry. Based on that shocks are best general pips up to levels 16-22 when artillery starts to deal lots of damage.

Once artillery enters the field (full back row) fire damage become increasingly more important. Units can be damaged easily more than 50+% in fire phase. That means shock phase damage is reduced by 50% - cavalry deals 80+% of their damage in shock phase, therefore cavalry becomes very vulnerable and miss and hit. If fire phase rolls 7-8-9 damage of cavalry armies is very bad. Infantry would deal much more damage in first fire phase for example, shock phase damage would be small anyway. Based on this after techs levels 22-23 (artillery gets +2 fire again) cavalry goes out of fashion totally for everyone, not just western nations.

So to sum it up. For western: use 2-4 cavalry up to level 10. Levels 10-22 up to maybe 6, cavalry is good. After level 22 just return to 2-4 units only for flanking or don't use cav at all.
Other nations, especially those with bonuses, use as much cavalry as you can afford: Cav > infantry in this case. After level 20-22 start reducing cavalry again to flanking support, 2-4-6 units.

 

[Exasperation]

Ohhh.. though you can see right information at eu4wiki, you perfectly failed to know exact information.

Cavalry has 0.00 fire bonus at mil tech 1-10.
Cavalry has 1.00 shock bonus at mil tech 2-7, 2.00 at 8-16.

Infantry has 0.25 fire at 1-6, 0.35 at 7, 0.60 at 8-13.
Infantry has 0.50 shock at 2-4, 0.65 at 5, 0.95 at 6-10.

So, at 2-7, cavalry has 0.00/1.00.
ar 8-10, cavalry as 0.00/2.00

At 2-4, infantry has 0.25/0.50, at 5, infantry has 0.25/0.65, at 6, infantry has 0.25/0.95, at 7, infantry has 0.35/0.95, at 8-10, infantry has 0.60/0.95.

Western tech cavalry has 3 pips at 1-9, 8 pips at 10-13.

Wedtern tech infantry has 2 pips at 1-4, 3 pips at 5-8, 5 pips at 9-11.



So, tell me. Exact what 'sum of modifiers' did you see? Do you earn benefit from 0.05 more shock bonus for cavalry before 8? Can't you see 0.25-0.60 fire bonus for infantry? Can't you see that infantry has same pips at 5-8 and 2 more pips at 9? Don't you know that cavalry is 2.5 time expensive than infantry??????????

PLEASE, don't say anything if you know nothing and don't have will to find exact information.

You seem confused about how the modifiers work together. You said:

If we play Western European nations, cavalry has no meaning at 5-9 level, especially at 6, 7 level.

At level 5, assuming even terrain/general bonuses, infantry does an average of 4.5*.25*B (where B is the base damage per die roll value) damage in the fire phase, and 5.5*.65*B in shock.
Cavalry will do no damage in the fire phase, and average 5.5*1*B in shock.
Total damage 4.7*B for infantry, 5.5*B for cavalry, cavalry does ~17% more damage.
At level 8, it becomes (4.5*.6*B+5.5*..95*B)=7.925*B for infantry, and (0+5.5*2*B)=11*B for cavalry, cavalry does ~39% more damage.
Note that the percentages change significantly depending on generals. In the extreme case (a 6/0 general vs. a 0/6) you have the following:

fire advantage, shock disadvantage:
level 5, infantry averages (10.5*.25*B+1*.65*B)=3.275*B, cavalry averages (0+1*1*B)=1*B, with infantry doing ~228% more damage
level 8, infantry averages (10.5*.6*B+1*.95*B)=7.13*B, cavalry averages (0+1*2*B)=2*B, with infantry doing ~257% more damage

shock advantage, fire disadvantage:
level 5, infantry averages (.6*.25*B+11.5*.65*B)=7.625*B, cavalry averages (0+11.5*1*B)=11.5*B, with cavalry doing ~50% more damage
level 8, infantry averages (.6*.25*B+11.5*.95*B)=11.075*B, cavalry averages (0+11.5*2*B)=23*B, with cavalry doing ~107% more damage

But wait! Notice that in this fight with very lopsided generals, the side with the shock advantage is doing 50% to 100% more damage with its infantry than the infantry of the side with the fire advantage. And the cavalry of the shock advantaged side is doing 225% to 250% more damage than the infantry of the fire advantaged side in both cases!

So that means that under conditions that lend themselves to winning battles against even numbers of troops at these tech levels (i.e., not at a shock disadvantage), cavalry can do significantly more damage than infantry. And if we look back at the case of being even in leadership, we see that an army with 25% cavalry will do ~4% more damage overall at level 5 (compared to an all-infantry army) and ~10% more damage overall at level 8. That means that (given equal luck with the dice) an army with cavalry will tend to defeat an army without cavalry at these tech levels.

It's true that techs 6-7 are particularly painful for cavalry, but saying cavalry has no meaning at levels 5-9 is patently false. Outside of the level 6-7 dead zone, cavalry can still make the difference between winning and losing a battle.

Edit - forgot to add in the effects of shock pips in a couple places. Funnily, fixing the numbers makes things look even better for the cavalry.

 

[lolada]

I think in average Cavalry in theory does around 33% more damage than infantry. Exception beings levels 6-7 where its about equal (or worst for western). At some points cavalry even deals 50% more damage (generally in tech where cav get +shock and infantry gets nothing).

But as the fire phase is first, shock phase damage gets reduces proportionally to fire phase rolls, so cavalry damage is not that much stronger. And it costs 2,5x more so it is never cost effective. Also cavalry usage is limited by cca 50% limit in armies and in combat screen it has limited flank range.

In late game, thanks to artillery, cavalry just becomes redundant.

 

[happymix91]

You seem confused about how the modifiers work together. You said:

At level 5, assuming even terrain/general bonuses, infantry does an average of 4.5*.25*B (where B is the base damage per die roll value) damage in the fire phase, and 5.5*.65*B in shock.
Cavalry will do no damage in the fire phase, and average 5.5*1*B in shock.
Total damage 4.7*B for infantry, 5.5*B for cavalry, cavalry does ~17% more damage.
At level 8, it becomes (4.5*.6*B+5.5*..95*B)=7.925*B for infantry, and (0+5.5*2*B)=11*B for cavalry, cavalry does ~39% more damage.
Note that the percentages change significantly depending on generals. In the extreme case (a 6/0 general vs. a 0/6) you have the following:

fire advantage, shock disadvantage:
level 5, infantry averages (10.5*.25*B+1*.65*B)=3.275*B, cavalry averages (0+1*1*B)=1*B, with infantry doing ~228% more damage
level 8, infantry averages (10.5*.6*B+1*.95*B)=7.13*B, cavalry averages (0+1*2*B)=2*B, with infantry doing ~257% more damage

shock advantage, fire disadvantage:
level 5, infantry averages (.6*.25*B+11.5*.65*B)=7.625*B, cavalry averages (0+11.5*1*B)=11.5*B, with cavalry doing ~50% more damage
level 8, infantry averages (.6*.25*B+11.5*.95*B)=11.075*B, cavalry averages (0+11.5*2*B)=23*B, with cavalry doing ~107% more damage

But wait! Notice that in this fight with very lopsided generals, the side with the shock advantage is doing 50% to 100% more damage with its infantry than the infantry of the side with the fire advantage. And the cavalry of the shock advantaged side is doing 225% to 250% more damage than the infantry of the fire advantaged side in both cases!

So that means that under conditions that lend themselves to winning battles against even numbers of troops at these tech levels (i.e., not at a shock disadvantage), cavalry can do significantly more damage than infantry. And if we look back at the case of being even in leadership, we see that an army with 25% cavalry will do ~4% more damage overall at level 5 (compared to an all-infantry army) and ~10% more damage overall at level 8. That means that (given equal luck with the dice) an army with cavalry will tend to defeat an army without cavalry at these tech levels.

It's true that techs 6-7 are particularly painful for cavalry, but saying cavalry has no meaning at levels 5-9 is patently false. Outside of the level 6-7 dead zone, cavalry can still make the difference between winning and losing a battle.

Edit - forgot to add in the effects of shock pips in a couple places. Funnily, fixing the numbers makes things look even better for the cavalry.

You and I both calculate wrongly. Calculate with B*(attacking unit strength)*(attacking unit modifier)*(1+ attacking unit combat ability)*(attacking unit discipline/defending unit total tactics). Simply, B*(attacking unit modifier).

 

[Exasperation]

You and I both calculate wrongly. Calculate with B*(attacking unit strength)*(attacking unit modifier)*(1+ attacking unit combat ability)*(attacking unit discipline/defending unit total tactics). Simply, B*(attacking unit modifier).

Well, since we're looking at the general case, we have to assume the same discipline/tactics/combat ability on both sides, so we can just fold that into B (it doesn't really matter what constant B is, as long as it's the same B in each place). That makes it B*(die roll+general pips+attacker's offense pips-defender's defense pips)*(shock or fire multiplier). I just realized that I did the general pips wrong, though (although it doesn't affect the basic case, with equal generals):

fire advantage, shock disadvantage:
level 5, infantry averages (10.5*.25*B+5.5*.65*B)=6.2*B, cavalry averages (0+5.5*1*B)=5.5*B, with infantry doing ~13% more damage
level 8, infantry averages (10.5*.6*B+5.5*.95*B)=11.525*B, cavalry averages (0+5.5*2*B)=11*B, with infantry doing ~5% more damage

shock advantage, fire disadvantage:
level 5, infantry averages (4.5*.25*B+11.5*.65*B)=8.6*B, cavalry averages (0+11.5*1*B)=11.5*B, with cavalry doing ~34% more damage
level 8, infantry averages (4.5*.6*B+11.5*.95*B)=13.625*B, cavalry averages (0+11.5*2*B)=23*B, with cavalry doing ~69% more damage

The same overall conclusions apply, though. One point of shock value is worth ~1.5 to 2.5 times as much on a general as one point of fire when just looking at infantry, and the more shock (and less fire) your general has, the more of an edge cavalry gives you compared to infantry.

 

[moyang]

Well, since we're looking at the general case, we have to assume the same discipline/tactics/combat ability on both sides, so we can just fold that into B (it doesn't really matter what constant B is, as long as it's the same B in each place). That makes it B*(die roll+general pips+attacker's offense pips-defender's defense pips)*(shock or fire multiplier). I just realized that I did the general pips wrong, though (although it doesn't affect the basic case, with equal generals):

fire advantage, shock disadvantage:
level 5, infantry averages (10.5*.25*B+5.5*.65*B)=6.2*B, cavalry averages (0+5.5*1*B)=5.5*B, with infantry doing ~13% more damage
level 8, infantry averages (10.5*.6*B+5.5*.95*B)=11.525*B, cavalry averages (0+5.5*2*B)=11*B, with infantry doing ~5% more damage

shock advantage, fire disadvantage:
level 5, infantry averages (4.5*.25*B+11.5*.65*B)=8.6*B, cavalry averages (0+11.5*1*B)=11.5*B, with cavalry doing ~34% more damage
level 8, infantry averages (4.5*.6*B+11.5*.95*B)=13.625*B, cavalry averages (0+11.5*2*B)=23*B, with cavalry doing ~69% more damage

The same overall conclusions apply, though. One point of shock value is worth ~1.5 to 2.5 times as much on a general as one point of fire when just looking at infantry, and the more shock (and less fire) your general has, the more of an edge cavalry gives you compared to infantry.

Your calculation is a bit off. Casualty is 6x+15 where x is sum of pip advantage/disadvantage and die roll - there is flat 15! While this means cavalry will do bit more damage than your calculation,(since their sum of modifier is higher than that of infantry) proportional difference will be smaller than your calculation.

So the right value would be - with tech level 8 cavalry will do 29% more damage than infantry with no shock/fire advantage, and 35.6%/41.2%/46% more with 1/2/3 shock advantage. Good, but does this justify their x2.5 cost? dunno.

 

[Exasperation]

Your calculation is a bit off. Casualty is 6x+15 where x is sum of pip advantage/disadvantage and die roll - there is flat 15! While this means cavalry will do bit more damage than your calculation,(since their sum of modifier is higher than that of infantry) proportional difference will be smaller than your calculation.

So the right value would be - with tech level 8 cavalry will do 29% more damage than infantry with no shock/fire advantage, and 35.6%/41.2%/46% more with 1/2/3 shock advantage. Good, but does this justify their x2.5 cost? dunno.

Your math is a bit off too... adding in the flat 15 (which is equivalent to adding 2.5 to the die rolls, since the 6 is part of B) makes it
No advantage, level 8: infantry (7*.6*B+8*.95*B)=11.8*B, cavalry (0+8*2*B)=16*B, for ~36% more cavalry damage
1/2/3 shock advantage: cavalry does ~41%/~46%/~50% more
your calculations seem to be excluding the 1 offensive shock pip that the units being compared have, which benefits the cavalry more than the infantry.

 

[Beagá]

At 2-4, infantry has 0.25/0.50, at 5, infantry has 0.25/0.65, at 6, infantry has 0.25/0.95, at 7, infantry has 0.35/0.95, at 8-10, infantry has 0.60/0.95.

Western tech cavalry has 3 pips at 1-9, 8 pips at 10-13.

Wedtern tech infantry has 2 pips at 1-4, 3 pips at 5-8, 5 pips at 9-11.



So, tell me. Exact what 'sum of modifiers' did you see? Do you earn benefit from 0.05 more shock bonus for cavalry before 8? Can't you see 0.25-0.60 fire bonus for infantry? Can't you see that infantry has same pips at 5-8 and 2 more pips at 9? Don't you know that cavalry is 2.5 time expensive than infantry??????????

PLEASE, don't say anything if you know nothing and don't have will to find exact information.

Thing is, you don´t disband and recruit cavalry willy nilly. Last time I checked both manpower and money are at a premium, unless you only play easy nations.

So well, you need to have cavalry, because sometimes they will be better and that´s even more the case if your tech group is NOT Western and you have a good shock general.

If you should have 50% cavalry, is an ENTIRELY different matter.

That simple. If you have a 6 Fire 0 Shock general in 1600... then yeah cavalry is pointless to build. But you don´t choose generals.

Your calculation is a bit off. Casualty is 6x+15 where x is sum of pip advantage/disadvantage and die roll - there is flat 15! While this means cavalry will do bit more damage than your calculation,(since their sum of modifier is higher than that of infantry) proportional difference will be smaller than your calculation.

So the right value would be - with tech level 8 cavalry will do 29% more damage than infantry with no shock/fire advantage, and 35.6%/41.2%/46% more with 1/2/3 shock advantage. Good, but does this justify their x2.5 cost? dunno.

Considering manpower is limited more than ducats, the priority is making good use of Manpower, not ducats.

 

[Will Steel]

Is the manpower more precious than gold because of the fact that it is depleted extremely fast in wars, or due to manpower being smaller and more limited compared to what it was in EU3 (200,000+ in a small France for example) and early EU4 versions?

Regardless, cavalry heavy armies do require a large income to be supported. In my latest game as Tunisia I made it a decent-sized power and raking in a lot of cash with trade, but still couldn't support too much cavalry.

 

[Chewy Yui]

Now if only we could have faster moving cavalry regiments

 

[moyang]

your calculations seem to be excluding the 1 offensive shock pip that the units being compared have, which benefits the cavalry more than the infantry.

Oh right, still not really worth it when the income is limited.

Considering manpower is limited more than ducats, the priority is making good use of Manpower, not ducats.

Only if when you can afford the cost. Ducat is precious resource in early game, especially so for small countries.

Maybe the cost has balance reasons, so large countries which can afford large number of cavalry doesn't get too much advantage against small countries.

 

[Will Steel]

Or rather, you could substitute manpower for gold using mercenaries.

But then you'll need a lot of gold, really a lot of it. And if you get to that stage of having lots of gold, you'll probably have a decent manpower anyway unless you play really tall.

 

[riknap]

Or rather, you could substitute manpower for gold using mercenaries.

But then you'll need a lot of gold, really a lot of it. And if you get to that stage of having lots of gold, you'll probably have a decent manpower anyway unless you play really tall.

or a trade-focused merchant republic

 

[Will Steel]

or a trade-focused merchant republic

And that is Venice and Genoa exclusive, isn't it, given their national ideas?

 

[riknap]

And that is Venice and Genoa exclusive, isn't it, given their national ideas?

not only. Aragon as well synergizes with mercenaries, plus it's not like Venice/Genoa are the only merchant republics