Shouldn't Byzantium have more cores?

[ringhloth]

Adding more Byz cores wouldn't really help them that much. AI byz will never regain their cores, so it's not useful in that the cores that the Ottomans have are useful as a guiding tool for the AI, and when it comes to a player Byz, the cores add up to a little less than 100% warscore, IIRC. Now, those first cores are important, but just because you can get a lot of territory very quickly with them. So Anatolian cores would only come into play in second or third wars with the Ottomans, and if you're fighting your second war with the Ottomans, with all of Greece under your control, you've beaten the Ottomans and won the game. It means faster expansion, sure, but it isn't any easier.

 

[Maldazar]

The problem with foreign cores early game is that it causes Byzantium to sprout up basically everywhere after it gets annexed. Ottomans suffer a rebellion an island? Oh look, Byzantium, in all of her glory, has returned to this earth!

And why is this so 'ahistorical'? There were attempts at rebelions to reform Byzantium, again, even in the 19th century, the revolt that led to the independence of Greece was started with the idea to reestablish the Byzantine Empire. If that kind of feeling still existed almost 500 years later, how is it weird to imagine that in the first 150 years after the fall of Byzantine Empire it would be so weird for people, in case of a weak Ottoman empire (else they will never lose to some rebels...) to try and reinstitute the empire?

There is honestly not even anything ahistorical about it.... Sure, Ottomans were not weak by then, but then again, in game they only get weak if some huge western alliance beats them, which in theory could have historicaly happened (they certainly tried in multiple occasions...)

 

[Wizzington]

Byzantium reemerging as the Glorious Empire of Crete every single game is very silly.

 

[Maldazar]

Byzantium reemerging as the Glorious Empire of Crete every single game is very silly.

as if it happens every game........ in all honesty in my last lots of games I have not seen the (probably since 1.12) i have not seen rebels win a rebelion vs the Ottomans in the early game, and after 150 years those cores would be gone anyway... Again, we are talking here about weak Ottomans.. which doesn't happen often (except with strong player interference) and I believe, had it happened in history, we would have probably indeed seen some rebelions trying to get an independent nation, and this would likely be the ERE... People like to think big, believe they can re-establish the greatness of a lost empire... specialy people mad enough to rebel against their governament.

 

[Wizzington]

They don't do it because they lost those cores. Used to happen all the time.

 

[Haldan]

Shouldn't Byzantium start at tech 32?

 

[Haldan]

Byzantium reemerging as the Glorious Empire of Crete every single game is very silly.

That does sound very realistic however, looking at Byzantine vanity.
"WE ARE THE GREAT EMPIRE OF NICAEA!"
ehrm you control like three big cities
"WE ARE THE INHERITORS OF ROME. WE REMOVE CRUSADE AND TURK."

 

[Maldazar]

They don't do it because they lost those cores. Used to happen all the time.

I play the game almost since release, have 1500 hours in the game, I know it used to happen often, never bothered me... but I 'm quite sure that with all the rework of multiple systems, like the rebel systems and the fort system, this just doesn't happen anymore for other reasons... I also don't see crete/naxos/etc.. breaking free anymore from Ottomans, and that should still happen with the same frequency... (just not under the byzantium tag..).. In general you don't see Ottomans sufering from much rebels because of all their awesome ideas/modifiers (and the fact that they normaly go Humanist first).. So it only really happens if the Ottomans are getting totaly rofflestompt, and in that case a rebelion of byzantine nationalist would not at all be weird... In the past sure, even with 1% chance of rebelion every now and again (because of some bad event or highish war exaustion) on one of the island eventualy it would rebel, but now a days that just doesn't happen anymore, except if the rebel chance is there for a very long time, which basicly means that the Ottomans are getting destroyed...

EDIT: also, what you are basicly saying is that the (historicaly acurate) cores got removed to basicly fix a bad rebel system... But now that the rebel system has been reworked and this shouldn't be an issue anymore anyway (except again, when Ottomans are very weak, but then a rebelion is not unrealistic), why not revert this?

 

[AurochsAway]

In general we've removed a lot of foreign owned cores because they screw up the early game. Ottos keep theirs so they can grow faster, Sweden keeps theirs by Decree of Johan, and Byzantium keeps the ones that aren't an easy gimme.

What about the French cores?

 

[steveh11]

I play the game almost since release, have 1500 hours in the game, I know it used to happen often, never bothered me... but I 'm quite sure that with all the rework of multiple systems, like the rebel systems and the fort system, this just doesn't happen anymore for other reasons... I also don't see crete/naxos/etc.. breaking free anymore from Ottomans, and that should still happen with the same frequency... (just not under the byzantium tag..).. In general you don't see Ottomans sufering from much rebels because of all their awesome ideas/modifiers (and the fact that they normaly go Humanist first).. So it only really happens if the Ottomans are getting totaly rofflestompt, and in that case a rebelion of byzantine nationalist would not at all be weird... In the past sure, even with 1% chance of rebelion every now and again (because of some bad event or highish war exaustion) on one of the island eventualy it would rebel, but now a days that just doesn't happen anymore, except if the rebel chance is there for a very long time, which basicly means that the Ottomans are getting destroyed...

EDIT: also, what you are basicly saying is that the (historicaly acurate) cores got removed to basicly fix a bad rebel system... But now that the rebel system has been reworked and this shouldn't be an issue anymore anyway (except again, when Ottomans are very weak, but then a rebelion is not unrealistic), why not revert this?

Here's an idea: Mod the cores back in (or if you're uncomfortable modding, I believe you can add the cores from the console) and play a few times as an observer... make it a reasonably large number of times. Record the results, and report back when you're done.

Serious suggestion, BTW, not a snarky answer, because I think it might well be instructive.

 

[Lord_P]

That does sound very realistic however, looking at Byzantine vanity.
"WE ARE THE GREAT EMPIRE OF NICAEA!"
ehrm you control like three big cities
"WE ARE THE INHERITORS OF ROME. WE REMOVE CRUSADE AND TURK."

Can I add these lines to my revolving signature?

 

[Carmilla]

In general we've removed a lot of foreign owned cores because they screw up the early game. Ottos keep theirs so they can grow faster, Sweden keeps theirs by Decree of Johan, and Byzantium keeps the ones that aren't an easy gimme.

Now I know who to blame for the swedish cores on norwegian provinces in -1444-.

They don't do it because they lost those cores. Used to happen all the time.

Didn't you people admonish posters for using this sort of argumentation all the time?

(Before someone goes overboard, I'm not being serious with the latter one, just the one about sweden)

 

[Haldan]

Can I add these lines to my revolving signature?

Revolving signature? Sounds badass. Go ahead.

 

[Lord_P]

Revolving signature? Sounds badass. Go ahead.

It's not as cool as you think. It only means that the quotes change over time as I find new ones to replace old ones. It's a bit like Wikipedia's featured articles.

 

[Haldan]

It's not as cool as you think. It only means that the quotes change over time as I find new ones to replace old ones. It's a bit like Wikipedia's featured articles.

Oh. I thought they were like able to swirl around and shit in your signature, like a .gif.

 

[Lord_P]

Oh. I thought they were like able to swirl around and shit in your signature, like a .gif.

If only!

 

[funshine]

This must be enough of an reason for the stickied Byzantium thread.

If you make a stickied thread, I will never post this again.

Thats just a cover the original is from vader abraham - uche uche uche

 

[War_lord]

Byzantines Buffed: Can petition for annexation to glorious srbija.

 

[cijik]

But what if when the Ottos conquer all of Byz, the Byz cores are replaced with Greek ones (the GRE tag). If the Byz core was a different culture from Greek it would just vanish, whereas the Greek culture ones just become GRE cores. That would fix the problem of Byzantium spawning through rebellions or being released in any way. At the same time Greece could have a decision (if doesn't already) to create Byzantium, if they meet certain requirements like owning the Greece region and half or whole of Anatolia. This just seems right to me instead of screwing with cores of a declining empire, which IMO shouldn't be able to be released or spawn from rebels as an empire.

 

[Jomini]

Yeah this is a big reason why as well.

Is there any chance we might see a new & better rebel system at some point? Pretty much since release rebels have been a positive feedback system which has led to them either being ignorable for the player or crippling to the AI.