Shouldn't Byzantium have more cores?

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Ciccillo Rre

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And you neglect to mention the OP Ottoman ideas (more than make up for the 25% manpower boost) plus the instant Empire rank and free culture conversion and adm costs.
I admit that the Ottoman ideas are strong, but each country has it's strong points in terms of ideas, which define one's strategy. Byzantium has theirs.

The thing is, it's not a fair comparison. You were comparing the decisions against each other, and your reasoning should be ceteris paribus.
 

Ciccillo Rre

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So beat the Ottomans w/o Poland with galleys like the last 7 patches in a row and you don't have to worry about diprep advisors or AI unit micro.



This isn't true either. Both Tunis and Crimea joined on this:



It didn't end well for Ottomans:



Byz is always amusing to me because it's a position that is 1) not even in the top 30 most difficult nations to play and yet 2) has many posters claiming it's impossible or that you HAVE to rely on alliances to beat the Ottomans.

Muscovy is too strong in EU relative to its real position in 1444; it's already railroaded for success, same with Castile. Let's not use hindsight bias to say these nations need to be stronger to achieve historic results. Sometimes France or Castile PU each other and integrate to hold both CN sets, more power than anything over there had historically.
Yes you're right, it is not strictly necessary to ally both Hungary and Aragon, but without them it becomes much harder to enact the ships wall tactic, because typically the Ottomans and Tunis attack your 30 ships fleet together and Crimea attacks you from the north. That's the point when thing become really luck-based.

Castile and Muscovy are only marginally underpowered, the first because of either Aragon annexing part of it or, in case of a successful union, France often eating up territory beyond the Pyrenees (with both doing weird things like to force the release of Galicia, which is still reasonable, or Leon, which is not); the second because of how ridiculously OP Lithuania and the PLC are.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Yes you're right, it is not strictly necessary to ally both Hungary and Aragon, but without them it becomes much harder to enact the ships wall tactic, because typically the Ottomans and Tunis attack your 30 ships fleet together and Crimea attacks you from the north. That's the point when thing become really luck-based.

Even though the AI will retreat fleets now, fleet-jacking the Ottomans with an admiral while they don't have one (do this as you declare, timing is very important but it's powerful enough to remove most of the luck factor) and using a large number of galleys is still very damaging. Crimea couldn't beat Hungary's god general (though IIRC Lith wouldn't give access so it was only their fleet I had to scare). Tunis couldn't handle my units + Athens' units while doing a beach landing, easy stackwipe.

I wasn't expecting Hungary to cross the strait and get a siege off. They're surprisingly strong now compared to most previous patches.
 

Chamboozer

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Part of that rebuilding involved moving Turkish families to Constantinople, which wouldn't be an option for the Byzantines. When you reform the Theme System you get a boost that sets the flag "constantinople_restored" +6 Base tax and +5 Manpower.

Actually, the Ottomans moved far more Greek and Jewish families into Constantinople than Turkish ones. Mehmed II wasn't particularly intent on Islamizing the city, just on getting it back on its feet economically.
 
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Ciccillo Rre

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Even though the AI will retreat fleets now, fleet-jacking the Ottomans with an admiral while they don't have one (do this as you declare, timing is very important but it's powerful enough to remove most of the luck factor) and using a large number of galleys is still very damaging. Crimea couldn't beat Hungary's god general (though IIRC Lith wouldn't give access so it was only their fleet I had to scare). Tunis couldn't handle my units + Athens' units while doing a beach landing, easy stackwipe.

I wasn't expecting Hungary to cross the strait and get a siege off. They're surprisingly strong now compared to most previous patches.
That's a nice example of successful micromanagement, but in the grander scheme of things, you should admit that it's very hard to fight the Ottomans plus its two allies without the proper combination of allies and luck.
 

TheMeInTeam

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That's a nice example of successful micromanagement, but in the grander scheme of things, you should admit that it's very hard to fight the Ottomans plus its two allies without the proper combination of allies and luck.

But Hungary is pretty reliable. To me, it's basically a matter of "do I get hit by Ottomans inside 5 years or not, after allying lots of junk like Serbia/Wallachia/Theodoro/Hungary".

If they attack me that fast, I'm dead. If they don't, it's very likely (as in last 10x in a row likely) that I'll win, even solo. The fort in Edirne does force you to pre-ship units to Athens though, so that you can kill Tunis if they try to land there and so that you can spend 100% time on galleys and use vassal units' help to get enough numbers to siege forts.

The little guys are just a deterrent. They can be summarily dumped after you attack Ottomans (they probably won't be willing to join anyway and they get stupid access so you don't want them) or dishonor CTA if they call you. Hungary is valuable enough to keep short term, if you don't ask MA from them they'll almost certainly block Venice's main troops if you don't CTA.

The one time I have lost a BYZ start since 1.12 (I've done around 5 playing around), it was because Genoa declared on me in first 2 years and called in Austria, and Ottomans gave access to someone in the war so Austria marched right through the Ottomans to Constantinople ^_^. So yes, there is some luck to this start, just not much.

You're not playing Manipur, Sofala, or Yaroslav. Hell, I played out of a start as Athens in MP in 1.12, conquering most of Venice by early 1500's. Then 1.13 came out and we abandoned it, but not before I practiced next segment and won a defensive war vs Ottomans lol.
 
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Scottx105

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So beat the Ottomans w/o Poland with galleys like the last 7 patches in a row and you don't have to worry about diprep advisors or AI unit micro.



This isn't true either. Both Tunis and Crimea joined on this:



It didn't end well for Ottomans:



Byz is always amusing to me because it's a position that is 1) not even in the top 30 most difficult nations to play and yet 2) has many posters claiming it's impossible or that you HAVE to rely on alliances to beat the Ottomans.

Muscovy is too strong in EU relative to its real position in 1444; it's already railroaded for success, same with Castile. Let's not use hindsight bias to say these nations need to be stronger to achieve historic results. Sometimes France or Castile PU each other and integrate to hold both CN sets, more power than anything over there had historically.
Show me how many loans you took out, I'm guessing by the amount of ships you have, you are heavily in debt. Plus Ottomans in that were already at war with someone else, and the fact that they did not destroy your navy when you declared war is impressive, normally the Ottomans have 40-50 ships.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Show me how many loans you took out, I'm guessing by the amount of ships you have, you are heavily in debt. Plus Ottomans in that were already at war with someone else, and the fact that they did not destroy your navy when you declared war is impressive, normally the Ottomans have 40-50 ships.

0 loans. I almost had to take one, almost. The way to avoid them is to delete both forts and leave maintenance at nothing for both army and navy until the months just before you declare, no advisors until after this war. Doing it that way it's actually easier to afford the galleys than build them (it takes a long time).

I intentionally caught their fleet split the second I declared (and targeted the one that didn't have an admiral), and I waited until they went in on Karaman for their cores, evaluating that as an easier war than me + Hungary + Wallachia.
 

Ciccillo Rre

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Show me how many loans you took out, I'm guessing by the amount of ships you have, you are heavily in debt. Plus Ottomans in that were already at war with someone else, and the fact that they did not destroy your navy when you declared war is impressive, normally the Ottomans have 40-50 ships.
Dude, loans are there to be repaid, and it's very easy to do it after the first won war. Ship composition also matters, the Ottomans fleet is mostly made of barques and useless transport ships, hence they won't attack you without the help of Tunis if you have that many ships and a decent admiral.

0 loans. I almost had to take one, almost. The way to avoid them is to delete both forts and leave maintenance at nothing for both army and navy until the months just before you declare, no advisors until after this war. Doing it that way it's actually easier to afford the galleys than build them (it takes a long time).

I intentionally caught their fleet split the second I declared, and I waited until they went in on Karaman for their cores, evaluating that as an easier war than me + Hungary + Wallachia.
I don't like to this because for some reason, I prefer loans to removing a nice fort in Morea (worth about 200 gold, I believe it's at least the same order of magnitude of the interest I pay), but that is doable too: Byzantium's income is higher than it should.
 

zsImmortal

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Actually, the Ottomans moved far more Greek and Jewish families into Constantinople than Turkish ones. Mehmed II wasn't particularly intent on Islamizing the city, just on getting it back on its feet economically.

That would be weird since the vast majority of the Ottoman empire was neither Turkish nor Muslim at the time of the conquest of Constantinople. Hell, I believe most of his court was Greek and Christian at the time.
 
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Outrider

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Show me how many loans you took out, I'm guessing by the amount of ships you have, you are heavily in debt. Plus Ottomans in that were already at war with someone else, and the fact that they did not destroy your navy when you declared war is impressive, normally the Ottomans have 40-50 ships.

The whole point of the strait blocking strategy is to DOW the Ottomans while they declare war on one of the Anatolian minors.

Since you DOW, you manage ship placement to catch half their fleet out and wipe it. Then you outnumber them from that point on. It's rather trivial.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I don't like to this because for some reason, I prefer loans to removing a nice fort in Morea (worth about 200 gold, I believe it's at least the same order of magnitude of the interest I pay), but that is doable too: Byzantium's income is higher than it should.

The utility of the fort in Morea is minimal. Constantinople is a little better once you win the first war, but in practice forts are a drag this early and that's going to continue well after winning your first war.

They're not worth it in my eyes, not in this scenario.
 

Chamboozer

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That would be weird since the vast majority of the Ottoman empire was neither Turkish nor Muslim at the time of the conquest of Constantinople. Hell, I believe most of his court was Greek and Christian at the time.

Yeah, the majority of the population of the empire was probably Christian in 1453, though not by a huge margin. The court was largely Muslim though, some of whom were converts.
 

mrguymiah

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If you really want to play Byzantium, just go and reform them. What's that? You won't have the right ruling dynasty and you don't want to restore the Komenos? (Which makes you a terrible person. : P) Just play Monferrat and restore the Greeks that way!

Edit: And I even realized, this is actually an easier method to become the Holy Roman Empire Squared.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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If you really want to play Byzantium, just go and reform them. What's that? You won't have the right ruling dynasty and you don't want to restore the Komenos? (Which makes you a terrible person. : P) Just play Monferrat and restore the Greeks that way!

Edit: And I even realized, this is actually an easier method to become the Holy Roman Empire Squared.

If going that route you can full annex --> release them as Ottomans too, first making sure to put the Ottomans in near-bankruptcy before releasing. The resulting "independence war" will be a farce, but you'll be BYZ fast at least. I prefer just starting as BYZ but do whatever you want lol.
 

mrguymiah

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If going that route you can full annex --> release them as Ottomans too, first making sure to put the Ottomans in near-bankruptcy before releasing. The resulting "independence war" will be a farce, but you'll be BYZ fast at least. I prefer just starting as BYZ but do whatever you want lol.


The joke is that the Byzantine dynasty rules Monferrat, too.
 
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mrguymiah

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My joke was that people were saying Byzantium is too hard. I've defeated the Ottomans and restored the ERE borders as both Byzantium and Trebizond (Komnenos ho!). Now I'm trying it as Monferrat for that same reason. Actually, I've just managed to grab Ragusa and Albania from Venice, making progress to connecting some greek territory to the HRE. (Can't move my capital if it isn't.)

Back to the point of the thread, though, I honestly think that the ai's ability to deal with rebels would need to be worked on before you restore those cores, though I would love them back. I see realms get repeatedly cracked by rebels far too often. This particular game, P-L never formed because P had rebels and then Lithuania had Galicia, Kiev, and a third state (whose name escapes me) break free.
 

Maldazar

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I actualy never see rebels breaking the Ottomans, because of their own ideas + humanist that they normaly take they are often extreemly (maybe even a little too) stable) of course they fall of late game and as player are easy to beat, but they are very stable