Should we separate some ethnic and national identities in the mechanics?

Nibbes

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Sorry this has got to the point that I straight up can’t understand what you’re saying in any of your posts.

No they can’t, they just pretend to be, and economics is a notoriously overvalued and worthless “discipline” for precisely this reason.
Think of mechanic about Heritage being similar to CK3 and pyramid. You consider not just regional ties but religion and language linguistic families.

For example, if your ottoman Turks and take Central Asia you are taking over fellow Turkic people which similar religion, language, and historical background but separated over time by Persia and Russia. It looks at multiple factors not just one in “weighting”. Regions or “cultural spheres(think western world, Islamic world, etc) being rough framework or “bottom” of pyramid on this mechanic.
 
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Mr. Wiggles

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Sorry this has got to the point that I straight up can’t understand what you’re saying in any of your posts.

No they can’t, they just pretend to be, and economics is a notoriously overvalued and worthless “discipline” for precisely this reason.

I suggest reading Bad Samaritans from Cambridge development Professor Ha Joon Chang.
 
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Nibbes

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I suggest reading Bad Samaritans from Cambridge development Professor Ha Joon Chang.
Cambridge and Euros are by far best or at least most invested in social sciences but when it comes to economics I prefer American and Japanese sources(or capitalist democratic parts of Far East in general). It’s kind of funny one of best economist out of Cambridge is South Korean.
Euros grow up well verse in social sciences. Americans and many Asians academics are more focus on materialistic fields and businesses from get go. I started working at 12 illegally/under table so it’s hard for me to take some of these “bougie” intellectuals from Western Europe seriously when talking about “working class”, business, or economist especially outside banking and public sector.
 
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I think it has been more or less said in a non-explicit manner in previous responses, but races are a socio-cultural construct so it would make no sense to define them globally. Also, despite the claim here there is no western view on races, different parts of Europe for example had and have very different views on race, without even considering how much their views differ from the view in the US.
 
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Blindbohemian

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For example, if your ottoman Turks and take Central Asia you are taking over fellow Turkic people which similar religion, language, and historical background but separated over time by Persia and Russia. It looks at multiple factors not just one in “weighting”. Regions or “cultural spheres(think western world, Islamic world, etc) being rough framework or “bottom” of pyramid on this mechanic.
"Fellow Turkic people" is an academic interest at best. Celtic and Dravidian people are "fellow Indo-Europeans". Even if it wasn't a purely anthropological observation (Islamic and Christian Spaniards during the Reconquista weren't going "oh, well, we're all fellow Iberians after all") it's covered by culture mechanics.

Language mechanics are already part of the game.

Religion is its own mechanic.

Even historical background is covered by the above, shared cores, relations... It's still very unclear what any these suggestions would add to the game.
I suggest reading Bad Samaritans from Cambridge development Professor Ha Joon Chang.
A worthwhile read (although "development" is almost as ghettoised a field as economics!). A History of the World in Seven Cheap Things by Raj Patel and Jason W. Moore is also very good in this space.
 
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Nibbes

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"Fellow Turkic people" is an academic interest at best. Celtic and Dravidian people are "fellow Indo-Europeans". Even if it wasn't a purely anthropological observation (Islamic and Christian Spaniards during the Reconquista weren't going "oh, well, we're all fellow Iberians after all") it's covered by culture mechanics.

Language mechanics are already part of the game.

Religion is its own mechanic.

Even historical background is covered by the above, shared cores, relations... It's still very unclear what any these suggestions would add to the game.

A worthwhile read (although "development" is almost as ghettoised a field as economics!). A History of the World in Seven Cheap Things by Raj Patel and Jason W. Moore is also very good in this space.
Race seem to be important factor in this period even if social construct like ideology or any abstract conception from religion or identity in general. It played role in this era like it or not. Yes Europeans had different concepts from one to other but “framework” among them was becoming more widespread especially in relationship to colonization.

Now empire like Italy towards African might develop a “when in Rome” mentality about assimilating Africans but Northern Europeans less so.

Also people who usually mock economist usually don’t know much about it or don’t fully grasp or like implications of it. Economics deal with more materialistic and factual date then any social sciences.
 
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Blindbohemian

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Race seem to be important factor in this period even if social construct like ideology or any abstract conception from religion or identity in general. It played role in this era like it or not. Yes Europeans had different concepts from one to other but “framework” among them was becoming more widespread especially in relationship to colonization.
I don't disagree, but you haven't suggested a means of implementing race mechanically that would add anything to the game that isn't already present in the language and culture mechanics.
Also people who usually mock economist usually don’t know much about it or don’t fully grasp or like implications of it. Economics deal with more materialistic and factual date then any social sciences.
I understand economics.
 
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UnenthusiasticClownJob

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One of the big problems with "language" and "culture" being how we represent race and not, well, an actual "race" system, is that I really really really don't want an event where Mark Twain releases a book so good it converts 2% of Foreign Culture Pops into Dixie culture pops, and then I watch as the 3d model for the enslaved peoples magically changes skin color. Yikes.

I get that race is an amorphous, subjective concept, but it's gonna be REAL weird if I watch pops turning white as I assimilate them. Alternatively, it will be even worse if they make it so you can't assimilate African-Americans to avoid this. I really wouldn't put it past the devs to not realize the implications of either of these, and end up having to scramble for a hotfix moments after release due to all the meme subreddit posts. But Victoria 3's dev diaries show an extraordinary amount of forethought seems to be getting put into the game, or at least into communication about the game, so they might have realized this problem and fixed it already (maybe even posted about it in some obscure twitter thread I haven't seen). Either way, though, I think the only way to prevent this would indeed be to model people's races, even if only as a hidden value. I think a race system is inevitable, but I don't know that it will be used for anything mechanically.
 
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Nibbes

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One of the big problems with "language" and "culture" being how we represent race and not, well, an actual "race" system, is that I really really really don't want an event where Mark Twain releases a book so good it converts 2% of Foreign Culture Pops into Dixie culture pops, and then I watch as the 3d model for the enslaved peoples magically changes skin color. Yikes.

I get that race is an amorphous, subjective concept, but it's gonna be REAL weird if I watch pops turning white as I assimilate them. Alternatively, it will be even worse if they make it so you can't assimilate African-Americans to avoid this. I really wouldn't put it past the devs to not realize the implications of either of these, and end up having to scramble for a hotfix moments after release due to all the meme subreddit posts. But Victoria 3's dev diaries show an extraordinary amount of forethought seems to be getting put into the game, or at least into communication about the game, so they might have realized this problem and fixed it already (maybe even posted about it in some obscure twitter thread I haven't seen). Either way, though, I think the only way to prevent this would indeed be to model people's races, even if only as a hidden value. I think a race system is inevitable, but I don't know that it will be used for anything mechanically.
Fully agree with this. My main concern is Vicky 2 problem of Afro-American(in game name) pops converting to Yankee ones. That’s one reason yankee pops would grow so much in last game. Europeans could do same to Africa and create blobs into it demographic wise.

Also it’s harder for completely foreign culture to assimilate one from completely different part of world. Even French, Germany, and British have more similarities regardless of hate between them at whatever point then they do with people in China or Africa. The British never assimilated really any of its non European pops in real world. They just had bunch of settler colonies.
Spain and Portugal was brutal in conquest of Latin America but actually mix with people and try to actually assimilate them more so then Anglo or Northern European counterparts
 
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Nibbes

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One of the big problems with "language" and "culture" being how we represent race and not, well, an actual "race" system, is that I really really really don't want an event where Mark Twain releases a book so good it converts 2% of Foreign Culture Pops into Dixie culture pops, and then I watch as the 3d model for the enslaved peoples magically changes skin color. Yikes.

I get that race is an amorphous, subjective concept, but it's gonna be REAL weird if I watch pops turning white as I assimilate them. Alternatively, it will be even worse if they make it so you can't assimilate African-Americans to avoid this. I really wouldn't put it past the devs to not realize the implications of either of these, and end up having to scramble for a hotfix moments after release due to all the meme subreddit posts. But Victoria 3's dev diaries show an extraordinary amount of forethought seems to be getting put into the game, or at least into communication about the game, so they might have realized this problem and fixed it already (maybe even posted about it in some obscure twitter thread I haven't seen). Either way, though, I think the only way to prevent this would indeed be to model people's races, even if only as a hidden value. I think a race system is inevitable, but I don't know that it will be used for anything mechanically.
Also would like Europa feature about promoting alternative accepted cultures in specific region or state instead of just assimilate to primary pops. Like if US owns parts of Caribbean or Africa they can promote African American pops there if accepted
 
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GrafKeks

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No they can’t, they just pretend to be, and economics is a notoriously overvalued and worthless “discipline” for precisely this reason.
I forgot to split;
Social-sciences can use formal-logical models ( If there was only a branch that, ahh ye system-science ) and hence can become purely descriptive. ( They can't become formal-logical themselves, just like physics can never become formal-logical, nor formal-science, it's not mathematics, it's just empiricism based on observations that are interpreted by humans ( until the first proper neural casual models are here, then machines can have a go at it ) ), giving the optimal way to achieve a goal is still descriptive, unless that goal must be satisfied or optimized( having the goal is normative, but you can use descriptive sciences just like you can use mathematics to reach goals )

Unless of course mathematics are incapable of modelling humans and their behaviour ( which implies that, the agent-agent interaction has the property of strong-emergence and I imply right now that strong-emergence might be impossible to model fully, strong-emergence is non-sense though ) -> They either contain infinite infinity sequences or actions that are neither discrete nor continuous, and a lot of other whacky stuff

I would say that economics used to be rather worthless and a lot of people try to make it worthless again ( 'heterodox schools' ), but thanks to people like John von Neumann it got a little bit closer to becoming actual science, rather than opinion-clashing, bad arguments, and essentially a giant ex falso quodlibet ( it still is, but less so than before as mathematicians started pouring, also some engineers IIRC, made axiomatic models, and also started empiricism, less ideology, more science. Still far from only science ). I never meant it can become mathematics nor equivalent to it, that'd be preposterous, but mathematics can be integrated and embedded into it, just like empiricism.

By value I'd say mathematics ( I include theoretical CS, probability-theory etc here ), nature-sciences, engineering, theoretical linguistics is top, although value is obviously subjective, until we define it in a well-defined manner.

I think it has been more or less said in a non-explicit manner in previous responses, but races are a socio-cultural construct so it would make no sense to define them globally. Also, despite the claim here there is no western view on races, different parts of Europe for example had and have very different views on race, without even considering how much their views differ from the view in the US.

It's not well-defined yes, I think it was used to refer to something below sub-species, although subspecies itself was used to distinguish easier between members of a species by morphological differences.

Cambridge and Euros are by far best or at least most invested in social sciences but when it comes to economics I prefer American and Japanese sources(or capitalist democratic parts of Far East in general). It’s kind of funny one of best economist out of Cambridge is South Korean.
Euros grow up well verse in social sciences. Americans and many Asians academics are more focus on materialistic fields and businesses from get go. I started working at 12 illegally/under table so it’s hard for me to take some of these “bougie” intellectuals from Western Europe seriously when talking about “working class”, business, or economist especially outside banking and public sector.
I prefer science over arbitrary valuation. It seems like you are talking about 'heterodox schools' though, they aren't science to begin with and they haven't been incorporated, unless they make an axiomatic correct model or have proper empirical analysis in which case they actually talk science.

I don't know what Euros are for you, but me and most of my peers have a strong mathematics focus ( whether it be Maths, CS, some engineers ). The campuses usually get better funding in those areas as well. And I am from Europe
 
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I get that race is an amorphous, subjective concept, but it's gonna be REAL weird if I watch pops turning white as I assimilate them. Alternatively, it will be even worse if they make it so you can't assimilate African-Americans to avoid this.
One approach could be that whenever a primary-culture* pop is depicted, the displayed character is randomly assigned the appearance of one of the ethnic groups that make up the culture, weighted by population**. This solves the problem of erasure and provides visual feedback as your national culture becomes more/less diverse.

*e.g. Yankee, Turkish, etc
**e.g. If you have 6 Yankee, 2 Afro-Carribean, and 2 Mexican pops accepted in the primary culture, there'd be a 20% chance of representing a newly generated IG leader of that culture as Afro-Carribean
 
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UnenthusiasticClownJob

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One approach could be that whenever a primary-culture* pop is depicted, the displayed character is randomly assigned the appearance of one of the ethnic groups that make up the culture, weighted by population**. This solves the problem of erasure and provides visual feedback as your national culture becomes more/less diverse.

*e.g. Yankee, Turkish, etc
**e.g. If you have 6 Yankee, 2 Afro-Carribean, and 2 Mexican pops accepted in the primary culture, there'd be a 20% chance of representing a newly generated IG leader of that culture as Afro-Carribean
This sounds good. Obviously it has some problems (i.e. even if afro-caribbeans are "accepted" post civil war, it's still unlikely they would have national-level politicians in 1897), but it's a nice simple solution that I don't think would take too much processing power and would more or less solve the issue. I'm not looking for perfection, I just don't want straight up racelifts
 

Nibbes

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I forgot to split;
Social-sciences can use formal-logical models ( If there was only a branch that, ahh ye system-science ) and hence can become purely descriptive. ( They can't become formal-logical themselves, just like physics can never become formal-logical, nor formal-science, it's not mathematics, it's just empiricism based on observations that are interpreted by humans ( until the first proper neural casual models are here, then machines can have a go at it ) ), giving the optimal way to achieve a goal is still descriptive, unless that goal must be satisfied or optimized( having the goal is normative, but you can use descriptive sciences just like you can use mathematics to reach goals )

Unless of course mathematics are incapable of modelling humans and their behaviour ( which implies that, the agent-agent interaction has the property of strong-emergence and I imply right now that strong-emergence might be impossible to model fully, strong-emergence is non-sense though ) -> They either contain infinite infinity sequences or actions that are neither discrete nor continuous, and a lot of other whacky stuff

I would say that economics used to be rather worthless and a lot of people try to make it worthless again ( 'heterodox schools' ), but thanks to people like John von Neumann it got a little bit closer to becoming actual science, rather than opinion-clashing, bad arguments, and essentially a giant ex falso quodlibet ( it still is, but less so than before as mathematicians started pouring, also some engineers IIRC, made axiomatic models, and also started empiricism, less ideology, more science. Still far from only science ). I never meant it can become mathematics nor equivalent to it, that'd be preposterous, but mathematics can be integrated and embedded into it, just like empiricism.

By value I'd say mathematics ( I include theoretical CS, probability-theory etc here ), nature-sciences, engineering, theoretical linguistics is top, although value is obviously subjective, until we define it in a well-defined manner.



It's not well-defined yes, I think it was used to refer to something below sub-species, although subspecies itself was used to distinguish easier between members of a species by morphological differences.


I prefer science over arbitrary valuation. It seems like you are talking about 'heterodox schools' though, they aren't science to begin with and they haven't been incorporated, unless they make an axiomatic correct model or have proper empirical analysis in which case they actually talk science.

I don't know what Euros are for you, but me and most of my peers have a strong mathematics focus ( whether it be Maths, CS, some engineers ). The campuses usually get better funding in those areas as well. And I am from Europe
Math is where money at literally lol of course it gets most anywhere but since people here often completely hate liberal arts with exception of History itself social sciences get less funding then sports or business here. You can’t have functioning society especially modern one without it. Numbers are rather universal and “neutral”. We just still can’t predict every possible variable due to human nature and our limited understanding of world along with concept of infinity and zero.
Some Stuff we are discovering in space is always poking holes in our understanding physics. So our science could have holes or uncountable variables limited by current knowledge if not honestly completely wrong on some things. There also people looking back at alternative forms of physics for this reason to explain variables we don’t understand.

We consider multiple factors as well, human error, politics, and etc but also look at it as in “vacuum” too(or ideal conditions) then we look at real world examples to see how it might actually work in practice vs theoretical

But back to game, math is just good for coding and creating coherent system or mechanic without games using totally abstract concepts or theories.

We can only go off of what we know, understand, and precedents(examples from real world or history). Anything else is theory or speculation until proven otherwise or implemented in real time.
Yes there empirical element but issue with European field they get too “empirical”. Because something sounds good does not mean you have practical means to implement it or calculate it’s outcomes without clear numbers or examples.
I actually never been big into math. Prefer history and social studies but engineering and mathematical field is honestly one of top reasons to take out loan and go to college here if you can pass it(most don’t) while they gut our funding for sports. Numbers can’t replicate everything but get close. Also it’s great for combat mechanics along with basic economics. Add more abstract and empirical elements as “depth” to gameplay but not core. Also just makes it easier for modders as well.
 

GrafKeks

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We can only go off of what we know, understand, and precedents(examples from real world or history). Anything else is theory or speculation until proven otherwise or implemented in real time.
What we can prove without a doubt, everything else is speculation, some speculation has more data than others ( mathematical proof v. empiricism ). The law of contradiction holds, something can't be true and false in the same sense simultaneously
Yes there empirical element but issue with European field they get too “empirical”. Because something sounds good does not mean you have practical means to implement it or calculate it’s outcomes without clear numbers or examples.
Then it is not empirical to begin with, although if the base is proven to be more efficient then it's logical to build from the new base as well ( evolutionary algorithms love to get stuck at local maxima, very bad if you wanna maximize globally, or if the function is strictly monotonous lol )
Numbers can’t replicate everything but get close.
The universal approximation theorem, and the causal hierarchy theorem would like a word ( Unless by close you mean the delta is limit towards zero, then you are right ).
Advanced economics can use ABS in the form of ACE which are MAS ( the sentence is true, the precise wording is a joke, because it is clearly badly defined ), truth be told nothing advanced is needed to outperform the market, has been done consistently, and dependable ( Simons, is a very famous example ). But that is advanced economics, which too is done by computers. Social-sciences if descriptive are just huge MASs.
 
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LAF1994

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One of the big problems with "language" and "culture" being how we represent race and not, well, an actual "race" system, is that I really really really don't want an event where Mark Twain releases a book so good it converts 2% of Foreign Culture Pops into Dixie culture pops, and then I watch as the 3d model for the enslaved peoples magically changes skin color. Yikes.

I get that race is an amorphous, subjective concept, but it's gonna be REAL weird if I watch pops turning white as I assimilate them. Alternatively, it will be even worse if they make it so you can't assimilate African-Americans to avoid this. I really wouldn't put it past the devs to not realize the implications of either of these, and end up having to scramble for a hotfix moments after release due to all the meme subreddit posts. But Victoria 3's dev diaries show an extraordinary amount of forethought seems to be getting put into the game, or at least into communication about the game, so they might have realized this problem and fixed it already (maybe even posted about it in some obscure twitter thread I haven't seen). Either way, though, I think the only way to prevent this would indeed be to model people's races, even if only as a hidden value. I think a race system is inevitable, but I don't know that it will be used for anything mechanically.
On the other hand, it would be perfectly plausible for e.g. Nahua pops to assimilate to Mexican. There could possibly be some kind of mechanic for how 'racial' a culture's identity is.
I don't think slave pops can be assimilated anyway.
"Fellow Turkic people" is an academic interest at best. Celtic and Dravidian people are "fellow Indo-Europeans". Even if it wasn't a purely anthropological observation (Islamic and Christian Spaniards during the Reconquista weren't going "oh, well, we're all fellow Iberians after all") it's covered by culture mechanics.
Nitpick: Dravidians are not Indo-European. I think you probably meant Indo-Aryans.
Pan-Turkism was a thing in the latter part of the period, although it didn't amount to much.
 
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Nibbes

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What we can prove without a doubt, everything else is speculation, some speculation has more data than others ( mathematical proof v. empiricism ). The law of contradiction holds, something can't be true and false in the same sense simultaneously

Then it is not empirical to begin with, although if the base is proven to be more efficient then it's logical to build from the new base as well ( evolutionary algorithms love to get stuck at local maxima, very bad if you wanna maximize globally, or if the function is strictly monotonous lol )

The universal approximation theorem, and the causal hierarchy theorem would like a word ( Unless by close you mean the delta is limit towards zero, then you are right ).
Advanced economics can use ABS in the form of ACE which are MAS ( the sentence is true, the precise wording is a joke, because it is clearly badly defined ), truth be told nothing advanced is needed to outperform the market, has been done consistently, and dependable ( Simons, is a very famous example ). But that is advanced economics, which too is done by computers. Social-sciences if descriptive are just huge MASs.
My general concept when it comes to video games especially pc ones it’s just easier to use strictly materialistic science and mathematics for core mechanics related to economics, diplomatic, and military.
Leave more empirical to political and social/flavor aspects of game. Like laws, events, decisions, and policies you can take.

Also it harder to mod and opens game to more possible bugs or oversight the more abstract/empirical mechanics in game becomes. Humans actually still understand that stuff better then Machines, computers, or any AI so far. Think compatibility and update issues as well
 

Ninking

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Absolutely not. I've been an EU4 player ever since it was first released, and was at first appalled by the introduction of mechanisms which made ceratin tags magically better and able to do things others cant. Since then I've come to accept that EU4 is an arcade game, Super Smash Bros but with a theme of history and nations, but that's really not the direction Victoria 3 should go. Almost all mechanisms should be accessible to all countries, and the ones which aren't should mainly be punitive and make certain countries an extra challenge for a player to handle. There really oughtn't be some way for e.g. Japan to be able to conquer countries twice as fast as any other or the US to get all the immigrants simply because they've got a pretty bronze statue.
 
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Nibbes

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Absolutely not. I've been an EU4 player ever since it was first released, and was at first appalled by the introduction of mechanisms which made ceratin tags magically better and able to do things others cant. Since then I've come to accept that EU4 is an arcade game, Super Smash Bros but with a theme of history and nations, but that's really not the direction Victoria 3 should go. Almost all mechanisms should be accessible to all countries, and the ones which aren't should mainly be punitive and make certain countries an extra challenge for a player to handle. There really oughtn't be some way for e.g. Japan to be able to conquer countries twice as fast as any other or the US to get all the immigrants simply because they've got a pretty bronze statue.
Pops already have traits and cultural preferences like some Muslims not drinking or making alcohol. So I don’t know what your on about. I nor no one recommended they give certain groups or nations artificial bonuses. It relates to policies of state like Jim Crow or diplomacy.
For example, the US did not recognize Haiti until south left US and was largely shun state in it’s early existence due to being “first black republic” created by slaves who genocide white and mix race population along with even some freemen black slave owners off island or drove them off with refugees going to south or places like New Orleans.
The whole world basically sides against Haiti when it kept trying to take back the Dominican republic that broke away. If non Europeans power start looking like threat especially more radical ones or ones ran by absolutist/autocratic regimes then yes the Europeans and western powers might work against them.
Japan for example got raw deal in multiple treaties and hike up loan rates partly because of shit like this.
 
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DrSwordopolis

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This sounds good. Obviously it has some problems (i.e. even if afro-caribbeans are "accepted" post civil war, it's still unlikely they would have national-level politicians in 1897), but it's a nice simple solution that I don't think would take too much processing power and would more or less solve the issue. I'm not looking for perfection, I just don't want straight up racelifts
For IG leaders you could weight it by political power instead of just pop count, but I think we're on the same page.
 
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