Should we have an "historical" option at game start?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

HansBaer

Lt. General
20 Badges
Aug 16, 2013
1.337
443
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
I don't get why they don't put in a ton of starting options. Every other reasonably complex strategy game has them, Civ, Sins of a Solar Empire, Total War series, even good ol' AOE.
As it only takes a few minutes to mod it yourself, how hard could it be to build in a few sliders and checkboxes at the start screen.
Aggressive Expansion: High Medium Low
Overextension: Yes No
Coalition Threshold: Slider
... and so on

Some perquisites, like easy - normal - Ironman - insane, everyone of these playable with autosave, but only ironman with achievments. Also, autosave with moded games, i and i bet many others can't keep themselves from savescumming otherwise.

Many more people would be happy, and the amount of bs threads in the plaza could be reduced by 50% at the very least.

I mean, this game is MADE for start options!
 

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.453
38.872
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
I don't get why they don't put in a ton of starting options.
If you have two distinct on/off options, you have to test four combinations.

If you have ten distinct on/off options, you have to test 1024 combinations.

If you have twenty distinct on/off options, you have to test 1048576 combinations.

You may rightly infer from this that the option-cornucopiae you enthuse about are not very well tested.
 

lucaluca

Exotic traveler
48 Badges
Dec 7, 2003
4.107
196
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
I don't get why they don't put in a ton of starting options. Every other reasonably complex strategy game has them, Civ, Sins of a Solar Empire, Total War series, even good ol' AOE.
As it only takes a few minutes to mod it yourself, how hard could it be to build in a few sliders and checkboxes at the start screen.
Aggressive Expansion: High Medium Low
Overextension: Yes No
Coalition Threshold: Slider
... and so on

Some perquisites, like easy - normal - Ironman - insane, everyone of these playable with autosave, but only ironman with achievments. Also, autosave with moded games, i and i bet many others can't keep themselves from savescumming otherwise.

Many more people would be happy, and the amount of bs threads in the plaza could be reduced by 50% at the very least.

I mean, this game is MADE for start options!

Preach! Why force people to mod the game themselves?
 

grisamentum

Field Marshal
93 Badges
Feb 29, 2012
6.530
1.202
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
I don't get why they don't put in a ton of starting options. Every other reasonably complex strategy game has them, Civ, Sins of a Solar Empire, Total War series, even good ol' AOE.
As it only takes a few minutes to mod it yourself, how hard could it be to build in a few sliders and checkboxes at the start screen.
Aggressive Expansion: High Medium Low
Overextension: Yes No
Coalition Threshold: Slider
... and so on

Some perquisites, like easy - normal - Ironman - insane, everyone of these playable with autosave, but only ironman with achievments. Also, autosave with moded games, i and i bet many others can't keep themselves from savescumming otherwise.

Many more people would be happy, and the amount of bs threads in the plaza could be reduced by 50% at the very least.

I mean, this game is MADE for start options!

Let's be honest. Most of the things you listed don't even really work in the first place. AE, for example, has inconsistent tooltips everywhere so it's not even clear how much AE there's supposed to be in the first place. Asking them to implement settings to do high/medium/low AE would require the game to actually work in very specific ways that Paradox games have never been good at.

As for Ironman it's pretty obvious there will be Ironman with mods but no achievements in a patch at some point - CK2 is already doing this.
 

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.453
38.872
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
Preach! Why force people to mod the game themselves?
Because adding options makes the game more expensive to plan, develop, and test, but doesn't magically increase the price you can get away with charging for it (and doesn't reliably increase the number of sales).
 

lucaluca

Exotic traveler
48 Badges
Dec 7, 2003
4.107
196
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
Because adding options makes the game more expensive to plan, develop, and test, but doesn't magically increase the price you can get away with charging for it (and doesn't reliably increase the number of sales).

It's not adding options, it's removing them in one mode and keeping them in the other one. I think it's totally viable.
 

unmerged(798670)

First Lieutenant
1 Badges
Aug 31, 2013
271
1
  • Europa Universalis IV
Because adding options makes the game more expensive to plan, develop, and test, but doesn't magically increase the price you can get away with charging for it (and doesn't reliably increase the number of sales).

Assuming someone made a mod and it works, they don't need to plan develop or test it, they would need the creator to sign off it being included as a default option of the game and waive the rights to financial benefits from it. I'd wager more than a few would be amiable to an arrangement of the sort, having your name in the credits alone could be very profitable to anyone interested in a career in the industry.

I also think you're vastly overestimating how difficult it is to do things like multiply AE by 5 and set the minimum vassal annexation to 50 years and the like in the first place.
 

HansBaer

Lt. General
20 Badges
Aug 16, 2013
1.337
443
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
If you have two distinct on/off options, you have to test four combinations.

If you have ten distinct on/off options, you have to test 1024 combinations.

If you have twenty distinct on/off options, you have to test 1048576 combinations.

You may rightly infer from this that the option-cornucopiae you enthuse about are not very well tested.

Well, that's what the prerequisites are for. If you take Sins of a Solar Empire for example, one of the most refreshing and balanced games i played in recent years, you can unbalance it pretty massively by choosing high income with low fleet size, where basically everyone has max. navy through the whole game with only 3 planets. But nobody forces you to take these options, as it is pretty obviously imbalanced. If you take the prerequisite, you have a pretty balanced game, but if you played it for hours you might wanna give the AI massive bonuses so you still get a challenge out of it, no need to edit text files in this game.

Let's be honest. Most of the things you listed don't even really work in the first place. AE, for example, has inconsistent tooltips everywhere so it's not even clear how much AE there's supposed to be in the first place. Asking them to implement settings to do high/medium/low AE would require the game to actually work in very specific ways that Paradox games have never been good at.

I don't see where AE is inconsistent or doesn't work, it's one of the more obvious things imho. The closer the more, the bigger the more, different continents reduce it, rivalry increases and so on. I quite like it as it is, all but the massive increase for bigger countries that is, but that will be changed. So on hard, you get 100%, medium 70%, easy 50% and so on. Or just a slider.


I agree with both of you that paradox is very bad at explaining things at all. When i picked up EU 4 (my first Paradox) I almost felt like playing the ancient "Tie Fighter" back when i was 10 years old, shooting torpedoes at star destroyers for hours just because i didn't know wtf to do, probably due to my English vocabulary consisting solely of "hi" "thanks" and some cusses back then. Well, at least nowadays there is Youtube, thanks a lot Let's-Play-Guys. So maybe they should employ an intern whose single task is to interrogate programmers about game mechanics at gunpoint and write up mouse-over tooltips accordingly :)
 
Last edited:

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.453
38.872
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
Assuming someone made a mod and it works, they don't need to plan develop or test it,
If Paradox deliver a mod with the game, any weaknesses of that mod will reflect (in the public's mind) on Paradox, not on the creator of the mod; they absolutely need to test it.
 

unmerged(798670)

First Lieutenant
1 Badges
Aug 31, 2013
271
1
  • Europa Universalis IV
And what would that testing entail that thousands of users reporting bugs to the mod creator didn't cover? The point is that the testing is already done assuming the mod is popular enough to even consider including in the default game. It will have more testing done than anything paradox could have possibly done in house simply by being popular and around for X amount of time.

I don't really understand the viewpoint of lucaluca, but I have the impression that ironman enabled mods would also solve his problem because he doesn't sound like he cares about achievements at all and hell even if he does care about achievements he could earn them normally, then play a harder mod if he had ironman saving.
 

zodium

Person
31 Badges
Sep 9, 2013
3.313
13
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
A mod being popular is very close to meaningless. dorimi's country mods are popular (and excellent mods), but they can hardly be called well-balanced.
 

unmerged(798670)

First Lieutenant
1 Badges
Aug 31, 2013
271
1
  • Europa Universalis IV
If a mod is popular and has bugs those bugs are very likely to be reported. Depending on the skill of the modder, they are then likely to be fixed and very unlikely to contain any bugs so bad that they would ruin the game experience for a significant amount of people. If the option makes trade income give infinite gold it isn't well balanced but anyone who clicks the "infinite trade gold exploit" option probably doesn't mind the imbalance generated.
 

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.453
38.872
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
It doesn't matter how awesomely effective at bug-reporting the users are or how good the mod authors are at fixing those bugs.

If Paradox are going to associate their own reputation with it by shipping it as part of the default install or a DLC, instead of making people use Steam Workshop or download links in the modding forum, they absolutely have to test it themselves, because their reputation is going to be on the hook for anything that goes wrong.
 

unmerged(798670)

First Lieutenant
1 Badges
Aug 31, 2013
271
1
  • Europa Universalis IV
Paradox's reputation for releasing buggy versions of games is legendarily bad, I do not believe practicing the level of diligence I have presented is capable of lowering that reputation. If they had a sufficiently high reputation as being bug-free highly polished developers who only released flawless work, I believe your argument would hold more merit.
 

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.453
38.872
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
I'm sure Paradox would like to improve their reputation.
 

Anthropoid

Major Game Slut
58 Badges
Sep 30, 2008
3.014
1.076
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • East India Company Collection
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
And no one is right or wrong. Trying to decide whether Game Mechanic A or Game Mechanic B is more "historical" is like trying to decide whether Idea A or Idea B is "heavier." Attempting to let "historical plausibility" determine game mechanics (or the other way around, for that matter) is at best an unproductive framework for discussion, and at worst pure nonsense, since weight is not an intrinsic property of ideas, and it depends entirely how you subjectively choose to translate "weight" (historical plausibility) to ideas (mechanics).

I think you take a far too literal interpretation of the word "historical" for a context like discussing EU4. Obviously, the whole point of the game is to play out an alternate history. Simply plodding through a narrative of the events exactly as they happened wouldn't even be a 'game.' It would be a book. A game involves decisions with a chance for reward and risk of 'loss' or punishment.

Reward in EU4 is how you define it yourself, but obviously what we all seem to share is an interest in developing a geopolitically potent nation. That might mean WC for some guys, insane trade power for others, or it might even mean roleplaying closely how a nation actually evolved but with certain alternate paths.

EU4 is like a kit for painting your own "alternate historical mural."

The key to the "historical" part is that the basic elements you are provided with should minimally contradict history. This does not mean that the final product the player finishes when he/she has completed "painting" their mural must be a perfect mirror of history, not that it even should be close. That is not the point whatsoever and it stuns me that people actually seem to imply that that is the point. If somebody manages to achieve a WC that is perfectly fine IMO, and doesn't breach the spirit of the game as a historical alternate history composition set. The key is: do any of the elements that are provided in the set significantly contradict history and do those elements somehow contribute to ahistorical outcomes?

Game dynamics that facilitate WC are relatively ahistorical as WC didn't happen, not even close. Game dynamics that constrain WC are relatively 'historical' (even if their abstract implementation in game might rub the fur the wrong way). At least when the player gets to a certain massive size you don't have Zeus throwing thunderbolts down from Olympus to destroy the arrogant human player's empire! THAT would be even more ahistorical (and annoying) that Coalitions and AE.

All this to say: to remain true to the spirit of the series, I sense that the developers realized they needed game elements that made WC more difficult, and in particular increasingly more difficult the closer one gets to total global domination. I think they've done a pretty good job of coming up with a better system than in EU3 and while I don't consider it to be "historical" it is relatively less ahistorical than any other alternative mechanism for constraining ultra-expansion, and certainly less ahistorical than a game like Civ where global domination is commonplace.
 
Last edited:

grisamentum

Field Marshal
93 Badges
Feb 29, 2012
6.530
1.202
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
I don't see where AE is inconsistent or doesn't work, it's one of the more obvious things imho. The closer the more, the bigger the more, different continents reduce it, rivalry increases and so on. I quite like it as it is, all but the massive increase for bigger countries that is, but that will be changed. So on hard, you get 100%, medium 70%, easy 50% and so on. Or just a slider.

The values displayed in the tooltips for any particular AE change are all wrong. This includes gaining provinces in war (it lists by country but those numbers are all wrong) but also releasing vassals (it lists a certain number but that number is wrong for all countries; it's actually different on each continent). Also there's no notice that releasing territory in peace or cancelling a vassal in peace will reduce AE.

So when you say "it's obvious" yes it's obvious that it happens and you can read about it afterwards. But there is absolutely no way to tell what's going to happen before you make the decision. AE will go up or down generally, but we don't even know if those numbers are what Paradox actually intends (and in fact the design is still changing as you mentioned).

How can you possibly have a slider with different values when you don't even have well-designed values in the first place?
 

grisamentum

Field Marshal
93 Badges
Feb 29, 2012
6.530
1.202
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
The key is: do any of the elements that are provided in the set significantly contradict history and do those elements somehow contribute to ahistorical outcomes?

The entire basis of having a game where you control a whole country contradicts history and contributes to ahistorical outcomes. I really wish we could stop pretending that ANYTHING about this game is historical.

History is window-dressing for game mechanics. Doesn't mean it's not important, as presentation is very important. But expecting the history to go beyond that is futile. It can't and won't.
 

Anthropoid

Major Game Slut
58 Badges
Sep 30, 2008
3.014
1.076
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • East India Company Collection
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
You seem to be missing the point.

The entire basis of having a game where you control a whole country . . . .
. . . and find it challenging to achieve expansion and conquest that surpasses that of the realworld analog country . . . is less ahistorical than a game where you control a whole country, and find it relatively easy to achieve ultra-conquest . . .
 

lucaluca

Exotic traveler
48 Badges
Dec 7, 2003
4.107
196
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
The entire basis of having a game where you control a whole country contradicts history and contributes to ahistorical outcomes. I really wish we could stop pretending that ANYTHING about this game is historical.

History is window-dressing for game mechanics. Doesn't mean it's not important, as presentation is very important. But expecting the history to go beyond that is futile. It can't and won't.

Lol you are splitting hairs, of course it's not a full simulation of history but limits to crazy expansions are more historical than no limits at all