Should Tier 2 Production Buildings Not Require Strategic Resources?

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Matoro_TBS

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It's one of the best choices in the new economy system to make upgrading actually costly. Without those strategic resources it would be just tiles all over again - upgrade every building when you get a tech. Now it's an actual choice whether to use more building slots for foundries/labs or upgrade them and invest strategic resources on them.
 

Peter Ebbesen

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Something I've noted in almost every game I've started since 2.2. In the phase where my empire starts expanding into colonies I've always suffered a crunch within my Empire's economy. I'm usually trying to buy and sell resources at a premium to make up for a critical shortage in consumer goods and/or energy and food (the later depending on the state of my colony's resource districts). Said glut, however, is quickly solved once the tier 2 consumer goods, alloys, and other buildings start coming online.

So it appears that to cover the massive resource requirements needed for a population growing across 2-3+ planets, you're expected to have those tier two facilities in production (or give up on unique planetary buildings such as the unity momument, robot fabricators, or hospitals on your capital). The problem is to efficiently upgrade to said buildings, you need 2-3 technologies (one for the building, and 1-2 for the resources themselves, depending on if you need to harvest, produce, or both). Which can take quite some time to get lucky with those rolls.

Considering this is such an early game crunch, perhaps the tier 2 production buildings shouldn't require strategic resources and instead said resources are required for the tier 3 or above midgame and later buildings?
Mmm, my experience is very different from yours. Or rather, my very first game abandoned after some 15 years of game time in 2.2 did start out with such a "now a glut of one thing, now another" - but that has not been an issue since then. My guess is that you have fallen into the specialist trap, something that has certainly been the case for many others writing about economic woes in 2.2, i.e. focusing too much on getting specialists to produce the "good stuff" before you've got an economy that can easily afford to field specialists.

If you use standard Decent Conditions as lifestyle, your specialists cost TWICE the consumer goods of workers, whereas if you've got access to Stratefied Economy from Autocratic you pay FIVE TIMES as many consumer goods per specialist as per worker.

In both cases you will greatly harm your economy by taking profitable workers that mostly require food, amenities, and a few consumer goods in order to produce resources and turning them into specialists that require more consumer goods and transform one type of resources into another.

Looking at saves from my most recent start as fast breeding fanatical spiritualist/authoritarian corporate dominion/cutthroat politics oligarchy in a large galaxy on Grand Admiral (later turned into aristocratic elite/cutthroat politics divine empire), the phases went like this:

2220-2209/2210: get 8 science ships out surveying (with Map the Stars), build temple, alloy foundry, and more districts on home planet. Nutritional Plentitude food policy, Encourage Planetary Growth as soon as possible. Gun for expansion traditions first and Interstellar Dominion as perk to allow more rapid expansion. Stratefied economy.

2210-2219: First wave of colonization consists of 5 colony ships - they are settled with 2 POPs each due to Expansion tradition, I resettle the extra POP from each of three of them on the fourth (the best) bringing it to 5, which allows me to build another temple. IIRC 3 of them were bought with energy (Corporate Dominion) and the other two normally. I have built a Civilian Industry site on the capital to produce the consumer goods necessary to support this extra population, but know that I'll soon need more - eventually every planet that reaches 10 POPs and stops being a colony will have both a temple and civilian industry to ensure amenities, consumer goods (and unity and soc research), but there's no rush. I want a rock solid worker economy before I start moving into specialists on a big scale.

2219-2225: I'm starting to feel the strain of expansion and need for the POP growth on my worlds to be resettled so I can produce more consumer goods, so I only colonize one additional planet during this period bringing me to 7 total including capital. The only one at 10+ is my capital, all others are colonies with the 50% growth penalty. But who cares? It is a lot more growth than I'd have by concentrating on only 2-3 planets at a time, and every planet that gets close to 10 start requiring significant investment over what is needed for the worker districts, so I would rather have many than few.

By 2225 I have 46 POPs of my own race, when I conquer a post-atomic indie civilization with 24 POPs that I enslave and start resettling on my colony planets (only 50 each for slaves).

"Twenty years later"

By 2245 I haven't conquered anybody else. In the interim I've only colonized two more planets and focused on building up the existing planets before starting colonization of phase 2 space that I have staked out by claiming many systems (and building two strategically important bastions in chokepoints, just in case). Phase 2 space consists of all the planets with 20% or worse habitability within my reach, as unfortunately I have no POPs with right climate, so I wanted a strong economy before their colonization. I still do not have T2 buildings, nor have I needed them to grow my ever expanding empire, which now consists of 10 thriving worlds with populations 39, 20, 2x16, 2x14, 13, 11, 10, 5. Some of these worlds

Empire size is 163 (51 districts, 46 systems, 10 colonies), total POPs are 158. Balance is +67 energy, +97 minerals, -27 food, +16 consumer goods, +36 alloys, +204 unity.

[-27 food due to having recently gone specialist on an agricultural planet, but I'm prepared for that with a 2.4k stockpile that will easily last until a few worker POPs have grown elsewhere]

So that was more anecdote than detailed prescription, but... I do think it is likely you are falling into the specialist trap and not focusing enough on getting a worker economy running. At least when I focus on the worker economy, it seems easy enough to go on an expansion spree.

I'll admit that this latest example is the best yet due to starting with Corporate Dominion and thus being able to pay for some of the colony ships with energy, which meant I didn't need as high consumer goods and alloy production as I otherwise would to have produced them - but on the other hand, one can also buy those resources for energy while using another civic than CD, so while this worked well, the advantage over not having CD may not be all that big anyhow.
 
Last edited:

favonius

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The tech order of strategic resources is really messed up. You can not trade strategic resources until any of the techs let you actually get them first. There's no point in unlocking a building which requires a resource that doesn't yet exist.

This seems to be the root of the issue. If you could purchase the strategic resources from the market before you could create them then the solution would simply be to purchase the resources from the market until you could extract or synthesize them yourself.

Now maybe someone else could verify this for me but it I think this was fixed in 2.2.1. At least in my game last night I noticed that as soon as I unlocked T2 foundries I could buy crystals from the galactic market. This was not the case in 2.2.0.

Edit: I should clarify that there isn't anything in 2.2.1's patch notes that say this was fixed so this is purely speculation on my part.
 

wundte

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I think the current system with rare resources is quite good. In particular, there are so many building slots on a planet, you can just build a lot of tier 1 buildings. Upgrade all your buildings to higher tiers does not help if you have not enough free workforce. I think you get around 1 building per 5 pops, so buildings that provide more than 5 jobs are not really necessary. And in the beginning of your planet development, you build a lot of districts, anyways.
At least that's my experience from playing the new update: you are always low on workforce, its often easier to upgrade buildings than to get enough workers for them.

I think there is a problem with rare resourse production. And its a tech problem.
All rare resorse techs and all tier 2 production building belong to the engeneering area. And in the game now (as it always was) the amount of engeneering research points you get is the lowest amomg all 3 tech fields. Like you always have tone of physics in space + some anomalies and buildings that give you tons of physics point (like dimensional portal researcher +10 points, black hole observatory etc.), you can and will build tons of unity buildings that provide you with biology point. But engeneering is always lacking.
As a result you will struggle to get those tier 2 buildings and rare resourses because you need to have tier 2 stations, new gauss cannons, cruisers etc.
 

Verx90

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This seems to be the root of the issue. If you could purchase the strategic resources from the market before you could create them then the solution would simply be to purchase the resources from the market until you could extract or synthesize them yourself.

Now maybe someone else could verify this for me but it I think this was fixed in 2.2.1. At least in my game last night I noticed that as soon as I unlocked T2 foundries I could buy crystals from the galactic market. This was not the case in 2.2.0.

Edit: I should clarify that there isn't anything in 2.2.1's patch notes that say this was fixed so this is purely speculation on my part.


special resources become viable on the galatic market after they sell eneught to the market, or after some years someone in the market researched the tech .

sometimes i find the marke having moles and cristal , gass is almost always late on it .
 

Amorenkaire

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Well, this blew up more than I was expecting.

I originally thought that there was four tiers of production buildings (like the unity monument) when i suggested it. But yeah, its an issue with the tech weighting system, or the first economic expansion techs you're rolling requiring 2-3 others.

As an aside, considering they're increasing the number of resources created from the refinery buildings, does anyone else think the planet special tiles should just unlock those jobs without using a building? Its a bit odd considering things like the mining towns of Australia. Rare resources were found, and colonies were built up around said rare resource. But in Stellaris, you need to have your colony build up to access said resources (and not use your robot/growth building).
 

Retry

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it is too izy to come up with energy , that building would make all the change to economy go to waste, and min-maxer greedy minerals eaters happy ; but don't realy help the game balance. ( why having a megastructure that give 1000 minerals if you can build 4 habitats full of those buildings do the same ?)

I'd imagine 4 habitats full of those buildings with the pops to work them would consume far more monthly food consumer goods, and energy (>1200/month on that alone) than the Megastructure. It would also cost more influence, wouldn't be much faster if it was at all faster than building a Megastructure (needing to wait for both Habitat construction to complete and a sufficient number of pops to fill the jobs and unlock the building slots), and may not even end up cheaper in terms of raw materials when all the resources spent on the 4 habitat's districts, buildings, the habitat's themselves, and all the supporting infrastructure needed on other planets to support 4 station's worth of pops (food & consumer goods) are factored in to the equation.

Perhaps you already found those strategic resources naturally occurring in space, and are mining them.
Except you have to find a research to extract the natural-occurring resources too. For instance, I researched the T2 research lab upgrade but couldn't find techs to either extract the gas or synthetically produce it until 40 years afterwards, despite having it in my borders.

We do that today already. We imagine things we could do with, say, room-temperature superconductors, and then try to find a way to make some.

Theorizing ways to make use of physical phenomena like superconductive materials, 100% efficient heat engines (Carnot Cycle), or nuclear fusion is all well and good, but it's not the same as actually inventing them. Any armchair scientist can speculate on the value of zero-resistance conductors, or revolutionary engines and power sources, but as it stands, we still don't have any material we can make superconductive at reasonable temperatures for commercial purposes, no one has yet built a truly reversible heat engine, and no fusion reactor on this planet currently produces more energy than it consumes.

And I'd like to note that the phenomenon of superconductivity had to be discovered before anybody started to propose doing anything with it.
 

Amorenkaire

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...and no fusion reactor on this planet currently produces more energy than it consumes.

No COMMERCIAL fusion reactor does! A year or so back ago one team managed to get more energy out of a fuel pellet than was consumed to make it. Not that its ready to be harvested or put into mass practice, but still. ;3
 

Andy_Dandy

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Luck should not play a part in the basic economic functions of your empire. You should be able to get a working economy going without being baffled by design choices like we are currently. It's just super counter intuitive that you're supposed to produce most of these "rare" resources, but then don't get that tech until way too late into the game

It's simply not true you are dependent on finding a Strategic Resource to get your economy going. Advanced buildings are not required for that.
 

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And I'd like to note that the phenomenon of superconductivity had to be discovered before anybody started to propose doing anything with it.
Yeah but it's not a general pattern.
For example there has been decades of research on quantum computing before we had any idea how to actually make a physical qubit.
Topological insulators too were theorized before being observed.

And as an example even closer to what we're talking about, fusion reactors are being designed and researched even though we're still lacking the material for a good confinement. If we ever discover a ceramic that works, that'll be just like a Stellaris civ finally finding the tech to make crystals when they already had designed technologies to make use of those crystals.