Ahem... Why I must quote myself?
Nationalism =/= Nation.
Return in topic or this topic will be closed. If you want, i can explain to you those things via PM, I'm actually a student of Anthropology
Should there be Roman culture on the map in the new DLC?
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Ahem... Why I must quote myself?
Nationalism =/= Nation.
Return in topic or this topic will be closed. If you want, i can explain to you those things via PM, I'm actually a student of Anthropology
At this stage I think we're moving away from culture and more towards "nationalism". I think we can all agree that everyone had their own customs. Let us get back on topic on which of these warrants their debut in the upcoming DLC.
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This all comes back to the original dialect: Should there be "Italian" culture in 769 AD, or "Italo-Roman" or similar?
I myself like the idea of a broken up culture. Just so that it would convert better into EU4. Fuck's sake, it all comes down to EU4...
hell yes give me roman culture and hellenism, i dont care if its all super historical or not, id love to see it in the game,
Please, let us not shape CKII as a function of the EUIV converter, which is a tool that not everybody uses. Issues in the conversion may be handled separately by who's managing the Converter DLC (hey, I'm talking to you Groogy... poor you). Also, if we start to do that for Italy, we should do it for France, then Germany, etc... it would be a mess.
Let us keep things separate, and make CKII the best game possible on its own. If for historical or gameplay reasons a unified Italian culture fits the game better, at least since a certain date, then we should have it. If more cultures are better at another date, the setup should reflect what is best for that date, not be a reflection of EUIV.
In addition, let us not influence the discussion of the cultural setup of 769 with our desiderata about a later cultural setup. The game has mechanics (e.g. events-driven cultural conversions, melting-pot dynamics etc.) that allow a more ore or less plausible evolution of the cultural setup given certain conditions, let us make use of these.
While I may not be Italian myself (well, I do supposedly have some Roman Senators in my family tree), I do think that the idea that there's some strong regional differences during the time period is not without merit, particularly when we compare them to modern Italy. How did the saying go, upon unification? We have made Italy, now we must make Italians? Hell, even during the unification period, it wasn't a given that the entire peninsula and Sicily would be united; many wanted a united Italy that was just everything north of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, and let the Sicilians and Neapolitans have their own state.
I don't mind if the melting pot thing happens, but I also want a way to prevent it and keep the old culture.
There should be a way to prevent it, just like how you can prevent Norse from breaking up by forming Scandinavia.
There should be a way to prevent it, just like how you can prevent Norse from breaking up by forming Scandinavia.
Nothing, but it's also a historical stretch to give a whole land province to a tiny Jewish Kingdom that's founding is built on legends and oral traditions passed down. Half the reason it wasn't even added when Jews were added to the game.
I think if we allow this historical stretch of plausibility then giving the Roman culture a place of the map in isolated corners of the world is just as fine.
EDIT:
To the point of the thread. I'd also like to point out two things.
Exarchate of Ravenna lasted until 751, and it followed the old system established by Emperor Diocletian, and retained by Odoacer and the Goths. I'd also point out the current Pope Leo III was born in this area and at the time was considered a Roman. It stands to reason the Roman Culture should be alive and represented in game.
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I'd say no. Latin as a spoken native language died around the 4th century. The lines between Proto-Italian or Proto-Franco-Provincial and Latin are blurred, of course, but they were definitely closer to Old Italian and Old Provincial than they were Latin itself. As evidenced by the declaration of Nantes (?) I believe. Basically, by the 8th century the Romance languages had evolved enough that Latin couldn't be understood by the common man, and therefore the Church ordered that preaching would be conducted in the local vernacular
The ones pointing at the 1900 cultural situation in Italy should not forget that it arose in 700 years of fragmented government, during which there were numerous different institutions reigning over the different parts of Italy. Often these were foreigners; often these were DIFFERENT foreigners, depending on the region.
In 769, on the other hand, Italy has been moving as a single block (or almost so) for something around 800 years. First it was Roman, then Ostrogothic, then Byzantine Roman, then Langobard. Only in this one step did unity fragment, the Pope remaining independent. Do we have sure evidence that cultures were genuinely different, at this time?
In 769, on the other hand, Italy has been moving as a single block (or almost so) for something around 800 years. First it was Roman, then Ostrogothic, then Byzantine Roman, then Langobard. Only in this one step did unity fragment, the Pope remaining independent. Do we have sure evidence that cultures were genuinely different, at this time?
The Veronese Riddle is from the 800s and still resembles Latin more than Italian.
It's OT here, but I tend to disagree here. Alemannic and Bavarian shouldn't be anymore German than the eastern Franks. IMHO you could have those 3 end up as German and the western (Germanic) Franks as Dutch.
As for the OP, by 769 it's tricky. Gallo-Roman, Ibero-Roman and Italo-Roman might be needed, but not the old Roman culture.
As I said... I wouldn't complain. I just don't think we need them absolutly. But in 768 I could understand this both cultures. There are just cultures who would be more important to add. Frisian for exemple.
The Lombards did not secure all of Italy, though. The peninsula was a patchwork of various Byzantine and Lombard territories.