So lower on the priority than the Italians then? It would be nice to have more cultures, but it may require another tier for things to work out better.
Should there be Roman culture on the map in the new DLC?
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So lower on the priority than the Italians then? It would be nice to have more cultures, but it may require another tier for things to work out better.
Nope, not at all, the millions of Latin-cultured inhabitants of the former Roman empire automatically became germanic-cultured when some thousands of Visigoths, Franks and Longobards showed up, forgetting all about their ancestry and becoming aliens to each other, forming those splendid cultural blobs we can see in the new cultural map.
Lombards and Visigoths were romance speaking... They are not Germanic at this point anymore. And Visigoth is most likely Romance Iberian.
Maybe have italy largely roman and have melting pot events to turn it italian unless the province is ruled by the ROM tag?
Obviously they were romance speaking, they were a couple thousand ruling over millions, my point is that choosing to depict Italy, France and Iberia as culturally asimilated to their germanic invaders is preposterous. It would be like making England completelly Norman in the second half of the XI century.
"Culture" and "languages" was two different thing. And I have already explain that the langobard, before their annihilation and then melt in the romanic element, were not at all become a "romance-speacking" people. The last traces of Langobard language date back to the eleventh century, in the langobard duchy of Benevento.
I must add one thing: English language uses the same term to describe Lombard = Langobard and Lombard = the modern, romance, inhabitant of the region called "Lombardia". They aren't the same thing! The first are those who have given their name to the region, the second are those who take their name from this region. But they are not the same culture/people.
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It's just a niming issue. Visigoth = Romance Iberians.
Look at the screen. The king of Asturias is Visgoth (the provinces aren't stripped). And the king of Asturias was? Aurelius! And Aurelius wasn't Gothic. This is the best point why Visigoth ingame means Romance Iberians. Even Pelagius (Pelayo) was discribet as Visigoth in real sources. And he wasn't a Germanic Visigoth (his name don't fit)
There's also the matter that the Germanic *invaders* had already been living in the empire for some time, fought in its armies, had often adopted the language and were more roman than German when they took power except for northern France where the Franks and Alans settled which had gone economic social and political collapse at the end of the western empire.
In fact Aurelius was the son of Fruela, and had in effect Visigoth lineages, though, you're right in this, had adopted the culture of those who ruled. Dunno, objectively I am convinced that the PI are making a Great mistake. The truth is that we will not know which of us is right until the paradox itself will not tell us what they thinks of this. I can only hope you're right, for the rest ... Needless to discuss it again, we must wait and see XD
I don't know, Fafila (Pelagius' father, as well as the name of his son) sounds like a Visigothic name to me. I think this is just a point where the Visigothic nobility was starting to incorporate themselves with the local Latin nobility. Plus, Aurelius' grandfather, Peter, was said to be descended from Visigothic kings, so he was certainly Visigothic. But accepting the in-game Visigoths as representing the earliest point where the actual Visigoths were merging with their Latin brethren is certainly a workable solution.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
Well, I'm going to drop this issue untill I see how is PDX actually gonna handle this, but just so you know where I'm coming from, my point is that there was never such thing as a visigoth culture in the Iberian peninsula, they ruled, yeah, for three centuries, and the only remains from them are in Toledo, their capital and some scattered churches and public buildings in important cities of the time. The architecture of which, by the way, is mainly a continuation of roman engineering. Their cultural importance is zero, much less than that of the Normans in England, and you don't see England painted in Norman culture after Hastings.
If you want an iberian culture capable of breaking into Portuguese, (Leonese), Castillian, (Aragonese) and Catalan, then Hispanic would be a better choice. Although I do concede that there's no perfect choice to be made here, all have drawbacks.
If you want an iberian culture capable of breaking into Portuguese, (Leonese), Castillian, (Aragonese) and Catalan, then Hispanic would be a better choice. Although I do concede that there's no perfect choice to be made here, all have drawbacks.
The Langobards did arrive in numbers - estimates go as high as 200'000 and never get below 100'000.
Not a number so big... they reached the number of 100.000/200.000 individuals counting the members of other Germanic tribes that joined them in the invasion of Italy, this certainly. And in any case at the time the Italian population is estimated to be formed from 4 to 7 million of people (this is an estimate, since there is no census at the time), mainly concentrated in the countryside due to the depopulation of the cities. (and are not considered the "romanic" residents of the islands, such as Corsica, Sardinia and Sicily.)
Find the information on: Persée, Mario Cappieri, Società Antropologica di Parigi: La composition ethinique de la population italienne.
Well, it was surely enough to effectively mingle with the preexisting society, instead of simply assimilating - not the some thousands of purely ruling class you found somewhere else.
Well, Italian culture really shouldn't exist at this point. There should be several local cultures, all with their own regional identity and their own version of vulgar latin. There was neither an idea of a Italian kingdom or a dominating Italian dialect at this time, and first texts written in anything that can be described as more "Italian" than Latin comes from the 900s.
Yes, but, well, not so much as to be represented on the map as 70% of the population of Italy ... however, they established themselves as a "caste" separated from the Romanic people, in Italy we can not speak of regions where the Lombards "lived" in the majority, they only formed the army of the kingdom and the nobility of the same.
And being devoted mainly to the war, they dying frequently, there are sources that say that at some point the Lombard nobles began to adopt "Romanics" in quantity, so as to evade the prohibition of their law that prevented the romanic from entering in the army, this is "assimilation". But unfortunately the assimilation was not completed, as the Carolingian invasion took place and Langobard nobles were replaced by franks noble (many langobards fled to Bavaria, where reigned a dynasty related to that of the Lombards, the Agilulfings).
Unlike the other Romano-barbaric kingdoms, in Italy (especially at the beginning) the Lombards settled a true apartheid.
There are no EU-style tags in CKII, you probably mean e_roman_empire.
In any case, I have advanced this idea (specifically, a confined to some provinces late roman culture, to be melted in a pot with the surrounding "Lombards" into a new Italian culture) several pages ago in this thread, thanks for the support.
Yep. As Montanelli said,
It would be nice if there was a chance for this to happen if the Lombards still rule Italy in, say, 900 or 1000. Kind of like the English melting pot events.