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Originally posted by Dynokeg
Giving it 1-2 ducats for every catholic province would make a papal player an important player as it should be. They would be able to fund conversions and fund crusades. It made the catholic church mad when 'heretics' sprung out cause they started losing money from the lack of money made from tithes and offerings. Giving them 1-2 ducs per catholic province would only be fair since historically papal was a rich kingdom and still is today.
2 for each province might be a bit much... that would make the Papal states richer than France and Germany combined, at least once the colonialism really begins...
1 or 2 from each province would be way too much. I say each Catholic state is the way to go.
Umm yah, popes still a king, when you give your confirmation in a catholic church you're declaring yourself a citizen of the Holy See, so the pope is your king if you're catholic. but catholic means universal so the pope is everyones king! OMG!!
I guess I'm still a little confused...
The Pope is a King? There isn't a Catholic country anymore (meaning a country solely of catholicism, not a predominatly catholic country), so how can the Pope be a King?
And what is this about the Pope being everyone's King?
Steele
Perhaps 0.5 ducats per Catholic province over 5000 people? It would prevent the Pope from gettign insanely rich from indulgences from the Hudson's Bay fur traders.
On a related note, perhaps this could be turned off by vent sometime during the game to give soem other benefit to the Papacy - when did the Vactican stop selling indulgences historically?
On a related note, perhaps this could be turned off by vent sometime during the game to give soem other benefit to the Papacy - when did the Vactican stop selling indulgences historically?
The problem with that approach is that bigger countries wouldn't contribute a penny more than the smaller ones. If it is possible without putting too much strain on the computations of the computing computer, a set amount per province would perhaps be the best (since country size is already tracked by the game). If we assume that there are 150 provinces owned by catholic countries at the beginning of the game, I'd think that a yearly income of roughly 150 would make sense. In other words, 0.1 ducat each month for each province owned by a catholic country. The income from Europe would eventually drop to half of that, as the reformation comes and the eastern empires (Russia, Ottomans) expand westward. On top of that, the relative value of the 150 yearly ducats would also drop over time, as the other sources of income grows for the papal states as well as for other economies.
IMO, the papal states should have the resources necessary for a diplomacy-heavy playstyle, and should therefore get at least the amount mentioned above (but directly into the coffers, rather than as "investable" income). It wouldn't be too bad if they could get a special +1 or +2 diplomats as well...
Originally posted by Onslaught
The problem with that approach is that bigger countries wouldn't contribute a penny more than the smaller ones. If it is possible without putting too much strain on the computations of the computing computer, a set amount per province would perhaps be the best (since country size is already tracked by the game). If we assume that there are 150 provinces owned by catholic countries at the beginning of the game, I'd think that a yearly income of roughly 150 would make sense. In other words, 0.1 ducat each month for each province owned by a catholic country. The income from Europe would eventually drop to half of that, as the reformation comes and the eastern empires (Russia, Ottomans) expand westward. On top of that, the relative value of the 150 yearly ducats would also drop over time, as the other sources of income grows for the papal states as well as for other economies.
IMO, the papal states should have the resources necessary for a diplomacy-heavy playstyle, and should therefore get at least the amount mentioned above (but directly into the coffers, rather than as "investable" income). It wouldn't be too bad if they could get a special +1 or +2 diplomats as well...
Don't make it a monthly income... A yearly is better, as you already get 'natural' treasury-income each year (census tax or whatever) and all, IIRC, monthly income need to get through the investment part. And if you're going to add more diplomats to them, you'd better add the dip-skill of their popes...
Should they really get income for non-catholic provinces owned by catholics?
The same thing could happen to Austria under the present rules, that one country gets huge, and suddenly Austria is only getting 2 or 3 manpower, because one German minor got a little crazy. Also, the country thing would have been much more simple, and it also prevents the Pope from recieving money from provinces under the control of a non-catholic. I think the country-way gives good results, as I mentioned, 90d in 1492 and 36d in 1617 (with 2d per country). Making it province based would be far more complicated. Remember, poor Johan does much of this i'm sure on his free time, lets make it easy on him, we'd still be getting the desired results with the country system, and its less work on his part.
This is a bit off topic... The Vatican City , the Holy See is an established nation http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/vt.html
And the word Catholic means universal, so I was joking when I said he's the king of us all... just a joke, nothing literal about it
maybe not king, but ruler, he isnt just a symbol... The leader of the Holy See is elected by officials, but if they dont like him they can always assassinate him like they did with the pope before the one there is now, he last like 7 days as pope or something :/
Originally posted by Dynokeg
This is a bit off topic... The Vatican City , the Holy See is an established nation http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/vt.html
And the word Catholic means universal, so I was joking when I said he's the king of us all... just a joke, nothing literal about it
maybe not king, but ruler, he isnt just a symbol... The leader of the Holy See is elected by officials, but if they dont like him they can always assassinate him like they did with the pope before the one there is now, he last like 7 days as pope or something :/
Ruler of Catholics maybe.
Originally posted by N Katsyev
I think the country-way gives good results, as I mentioned, 90d in 1492 and 36d in 1617 (with 2d per country). Making it province based would be far more complicated. Remember, poor Johan does much of this i'm sure on his free time, lets make it easy on him, we'd still be getting the desired results with the country system, and its less work on his part.
I think it's an excellent idea, especially as it encourages some force-conversion as was mentioned. The Pope, then, would be interested to have as many Catholic minors in Europe as possible, which is very historical.
Is there any justification for giving the Papal States a CB shield over Modena?
I keep hearing that the Papacy had a valid clain to the Modena at some point in the time frame of EU2. I could be wrong tho.
Maybe this should be an event for EEP instead....
I keep hearing that the Papacy had a valid clain to the Modena at some point in the time frame of EU2. I could be wrong tho.
Maybe this should be an event for EEP instead....
Back to topic...
1-2 ducs per catholic provs is not overkill ;/ since papal has low manpower. He should be rich ... the pope contributed in many wars throughout history that would benefit his nation with funding the nation he favored. example of that is when the Pope demanded the habsburg and venice to fight off the French and kicking them out of Italy, he funded the habsburg and he even sent men to fight. Papal states should not be weak, cause even Tuscany ends up beating on Papal and owns Romagne and Marche by 1540 if they are both AI nations. Papal should not be a weakling...
And if your worry is that the papal states will unite Italy and get too strong, It's not like it doesnt happen already when a player is Papal States...
1-2 ducs per catholic provs is not overkill ;/ since papal has low manpower. He should be rich ... the pope contributed in many wars throughout history that would benefit his nation with funding the nation he favored. example of that is when the Pope demanded the habsburg and venice to fight off the French and kicking them out of Italy, he funded the habsburg and he even sent men to fight. Papal states should not be weak, cause even Tuscany ends up beating on Papal and owns Romagne and Marche by 1540 if they are both AI nations. Papal should not be a weakling...
And if your worry is that the papal states will unite Italy and get too strong, It's not like it doesnt happen already when a player is Papal States...
Giving the Pope some extra funds is all well and good, but I do have a few observations about it.
First, what extra expenses did the Papacy have - any payments to Cardinals and priests, churches and cathedrals and monasteries and the like? Possibly the 'extra income' would be offset by the 'extra expenses', including artworks (which inspired the faithful to stay faithful and to donate more money).
The Papacy was, indeed, rich - but most of that wealth was committed, in art and gold chalices and upkeep of buildings.
Second, the Pope is already deprived of his most important weapon - excommunication (or the threat of it). Ideally, there should be a way for the Pope to demand money from monarchs ('Pope demands money for Crusade' events?) which, if rejected, would cause relations with all Catholic countries to drop, just as an annexation would.
I know - I said ideally. I'm not asking Johan to code this.
Given the Papacy's historical record, absolutely no money should be added to the monthly income for research. And all Catholic countries - including the Papacy - already receive a bonus of diplomats.
First, what extra expenses did the Papacy have - any payments to Cardinals and priests, churches and cathedrals and monasteries and the like? Possibly the 'extra income' would be offset by the 'extra expenses', including artworks (which inspired the faithful to stay faithful and to donate more money).
The Papacy was, indeed, rich - but most of that wealth was committed, in art and gold chalices and upkeep of buildings.
Second, the Pope is already deprived of his most important weapon - excommunication (or the threat of it). Ideally, there should be a way for the Pope to demand money from monarchs ('Pope demands money for Crusade' events?) which, if rejected, would cause relations with all Catholic countries to drop, just as an annexation would.
I know - I said ideally. I'm not asking Johan to code this.
Given the Papacy's historical record, absolutely no money should be added to the monthly income for research. And all Catholic countries - including the Papacy - already receive a bonus of diplomats.
If I can repeat myself, I think this might be better handled through sporadic events. Giving the Pope 2d or even 1d from each Catholic country per year is a bit excessive. Didn't the Pope only authorize indulgence at specific times for specific reasons? I don't think any other form of Papal income would amount to this much money, which easily would put the Pope on par with majors in the earlier game. Perhaps every 20 years or so, an event could come up giving the Pope the opportunity to authorize an indulgence in a random Catholic territory. Even in terms of gameplay, we could see the Pope easily conquering Italy <especially over the tax collector-crippled AI> and going on to become a huge major power.
Hmm.. never thought i'd find myself fighting in defense of the Pope.. but here we go...
First as for the expenses, 1 or 2d per catholic country really isn't a whole lot, and if we want to get into how much money the Pontiff he really did have coming in, he'd probably make a much larger figure than that. So consider the very low 1 or 2d, as having expenses taken out of it already.
Secondly, I haven't a doubt that something will be done to get the AI back on track after the tax collector change. The Pope during his maximum will be making maybe something around ~130d, which is indeed wealthy for a 3 province country. However his manpower is remaining the same, making his conquest of Italy not a whole lot easier than it had been before. This could give us a Papal player with some strength without having to ahistorically expand all the time.
First as for the expenses, 1 or 2d per catholic country really isn't a whole lot, and if we want to get into how much money the Pontiff he really did have coming in, he'd probably make a much larger figure than that. So consider the very low 1 or 2d, as having expenses taken out of it already.
Secondly, I haven't a doubt that something will be done to get the AI back on track after the tax collector change. The Pope during his maximum will be making maybe something around ~130d, which is indeed wealthy for a 3 province country. However his manpower is remaining the same, making his conquest of Italy not a whole lot easier than it had been before. This could give us a Papal player with some strength without having to ahistorically expand all the time.
Hmm... perhaps some events would work to represent some of that papal power.... maybe when a Catholic country either (1) declares war on another Catholic country or (2) makes peace with a non-Christian country, the Papal States could get an event to excommunicate them - which would, say, decrease the target country's relations with all Catholic countries by 15-30 points? It would certainly be enough to stop them from being diplomatically effective for a time. Alternatively, you could force the country to become a Papal vassal, then immediately set off an event that breaks that vassalage, which would effectively break up all their present diplomatic arrangements....
On the other point... the Vatican does still exist - the way it's set up, it's basically an elective monarchy. They only control a few tiny pieces of land in and around Rome (mostly individual properties that belonged to the Pope as the old ruler of the Papal States), the rest having been conquered or ceded to Italy during its unification. There's also an interesting exemption for it in one of the treaties after the Napoleonic wars... as many folks here know, German states often rented out their armies as mercenaries (something else that's missing from EU2). The Swiss were the most feared of these, and at one point they were forced into signing a treaty pledging to never again send their troops outside of Switzerland - *except* to the Vatican (then the Papal States), where they were and still are employed as guards.
On the other point... the Vatican does still exist - the way it's set up, it's basically an elective monarchy. They only control a few tiny pieces of land in and around Rome (mostly individual properties that belonged to the Pope as the old ruler of the Papal States), the rest having been conquered or ceded to Italy during its unification. There's also an interesting exemption for it in one of the treaties after the Napoleonic wars... as many folks here know, German states often rented out their armies as mercenaries (something else that's missing from EU2). The Swiss were the most feared of these, and at one point they were forced into signing a treaty pledging to never again send their troops outside of Switzerland - *except* to the Vatican (then the Papal States), where they were and still are employed as guards.
Interesting idea, but with a Papal State's AI, 95% of the time Option A would be chosen. Lets just hope that's not the excommunicating one.
If you guys want to discuss the Pope as king or not a king, take it to OT or history forums.