Should The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands get there own provinces?

[pphair]

It is a proof systemic from the reasoning. There are places less historically, economically, militarily less important than both Jersey and Japan that have received more attention from Paradox. You are meant to supply a criterion by which they decide to spend time adding or detailing places that isn't my asserted one of "because they feel like it (or don't)".

You have a clear view of what you want for Jersey, that is known and could be added if it was deemed necessary.

Japan doesn't have an obvious solution. Should there be one country with revolt events? Should they add more tags and more detailed interaction between Daimyos and the Shogun? There is no clear answer and doing the wrong thing could be worse than doing nothing.
I may be wrong, but when they redesigned Japan in EU3 Divine Wind, the response was "its a bit boring" or something not terribly positive. Maybe they want to avoid that result?

What I'm saying is, Jersey isn't in the game because its fairly insignificant, so they haven't added it. Japan hasn't been changed because they haven't figured out how to change it.

 

[ABookshelf]

Also, every individual island of Hawaii should get its own province because there were multiple different tribes ruled the individual islands during this time period. So if PI doesn't add a province for literally every Hawaiian island, they're alienating all the native Hawaiians who want to play their ancestral tribe. I'm sure Edmon will back me up on this as well as the inclusion of all Visayan islands as provinces and a separate province for literally every island that was inhabited by anybody ever

 

[pphair]

Also, every individual island of Hawaii should get its own province because there were multiple different tribes ruled the individual islands during this time period. So if PI doesn't add a province for literally every Hawaiian island, they're alienating all the native Hawaiians who want to play their ancestral tribe. I'm sure Edmon will back me up on this as well as the inclusion of all Visayan islands as provinces and a separate province for literally every island that was inhabited by anybody ever

You were doing well until that last bit. Just a bit too much.

 

[Grand Historian]

That is because I signed up for and met the standard to be in the UK military, but I was sadly medically discharged. Additionally, it contains the Jersey flag. I cannot pick the Jersey flag nor upload it separately.

I don't hate England or France, or the UK. I'm not that petty. I just want you to get your facts right.

And how have I gotten my facts wrong? I'm pretty sure that me saying I don't think it would be a good idea, that resources would be spent better elsewhere, there's no historical tag to represent it with (and that's the big one), and there's not an overwhelming amount of support for Jersey is both an opinion and factual.

If Jersey was someone in Paradox's pet location, it'd be done by now. Care is a fine word. Developers often are guilty of working only on what interests them and ignoring other work, which is often why boring, uninteresting QA, bug fixes, interface stuff, etc gets a back seat.

Paradox has actually gotten a bit better at toning down their Developer Bias (removing Sweden's cores on Scania, buffing Denmark, making the Kalmar Union feasible, etc.).

And I think it has more to do with the fact that they don't think Jersey is important, especially in comparison to everything else that's outstanding, than any bias on their part. Or does you being from Jersey effect how you perceive its importance?

And yes, a Jersey tag would be lovely. I'd even pay Paradox to add it. I'm on big money so whatever.

If a day comes when a Jersey tag is added, we might as well as throw in Mercia, Wessex, Essex, East Anglia and every other possible English tag outside the period or downright ahistorical to balkanize England, along with other primo choices such as Austria-Hungary, Carthage, Francia and the Boer Republic.

 

[Grand Historian]

Also, every individual island of Hawaii should get its own province because there were multiple different tribes ruled the individual islands during this time period. So if PI doesn't add a province for literally every Hawaiian island, they're alienating all the native Hawaiians who want to play their ancestral tribe. I'm sure Edmon will back me up on this as well as the inclusion of all Visayan islands as provinces and a separate province for literally every island that was inhabited by anybody ever

Don't forget every island in the Aegean. Can't risk alienating those balkanites.

 

[Grand Historian]

You have a clear view of what you want for Jersey, that is known and could be added if it was deemed necessary.

Japan doesn't have an obvious solution. Should there be one country with revolt events? Should they add more tags and more detailed interaction between Daimyos and the Shogun? There is no clear answer and doing the wrong thing could be worse than doing nothing.
I may be wrong, but when they redesigned Japan in EU3 Divine Wind, the response was "its a bit boring" or something not terribly positive. Maybe they want to avoid that result?

What I'm saying is, Jersey isn't in the game because its fairly insignificant, so they haven't added it. Japan hasn't been changed because they haven't figured out how to change it.

Actually, there is a clear solution for Japan; remove the Ashikaga Shogunate/Japan as a nation at gamestart and replace them with a mechanic. It would be more historical as they, even by 1444, held no real power and were puppets, and would resolve a lot of silliness that happens because the Daimyo are vassals.

 

[Sunspawn]

Actually, there is a clear solution for Japan; remove the Ashikaga Shogunate/Japan as a nation at gamestart and replace them with a mechanic. It would be more historical as they, even by 1444, held no real power and were puppets, and would resolve a lot of silliness that happens because the Daimyo are vassals.

Didn't VeF or M&T do that? The latter iirc.

 

[pphair]

Actually, there is a clear solution for Japan; remove the Ashikaga Shogunate/Japan as a nation at gamestart and replace them with a mechanic. It would be more historical as they, even by 1444, held no real power and were puppets, and would resolve a lot of silliness that happens because the Daimyo are vassals.

I skimmed over that. Definitely a great idea. But my point was that it would take a lot to implement and balance. A lot of those NI are OP. So its not a clear solution, but a very good suggestion to work from.
I was trying to say that making changes like this are not the same as adding a Jersey province and tag. They are not excluded for the same reasons.

 

[Grand Historian]

I skimmed over that. Definitely a great idea. But my point was that it would take a lot to implement and balance. A lot of those NI are OP. So its not a clear solution, but a very good suggestion to work from.
I was trying to say that making changes like this are not the same as adding a Jersey province and tag. They are not excluded for the same reasons.

True (though, at this point, Japan is really only going to get fixed by a DLC, which usually are the focus of quite a bit of effort. Likewise, the NI's are meant to offer an alternative to Japan's incredible set without making it seem like a particular loss or gain - basically a specialization).

Didn't VeF or M&T do that? The latter iirc.

I wouldn't know, I don't regularly play mods (though I do know that both made serious missteps with Japan's map).

 

[pphair]

True (though, at this point, Japan is really only going to get fixed by a DLC, which usually are the focus of quite a bit of effort. Likewise, the NI's are meant to offer an alternative Japan's incredible set without making it seem like a particular loss or gain).

Yeah, I agree, a DLC seems like the only.
Fair enough thinking about the ideas.(but this is EU, fairness has no place!)

 

[Edmon]

Don't forget every island in the Aegean. Can't risk alienating those balkanites.

Did you know that Jersey is the place where the idea of constitutionalism was born? Why do you do some reading about the place you think is so unimportant? I've found a nice wiki page that uses simple explanations so you don't even have to study.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jersey

 

[Grand Historian]

Did you know that Jersey is the place where the idea of constitutionalism was born? Why do you do some reading about the place you think is so unimportant? I've found a nice wiki page that uses simple explanations so you don't even have to study.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jersey

I think there are a few people from San Marino who would like to have a word with you.

And, again, you're putting words in my mouth out of your nationalistic anger. I didn't say it was unimportant, I said there are plenty of other places deserving of attention before the Channel Islands.

 

[Sunspawn]

Did you know that Jersey is the place where the idea of constitutionalism was born? Why do you do some reading about the place you think is so unimportant? I've found a nice wiki page that uses simple explanations so you don't even have to study.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jersey

What contribution did Jersey have to the economy of England/Great Britain in the period covered by EU4? Did it perhaps house some mighty fortifications that rebuffed attacks on the Isles from the evul Baguette? Is there ANY mechanic that can translate the importance of the CI to keeping the Channel impassable and defending the Isles?

The answer to that is: None. No. No. in that order. There is no reason that, given the mechanics of EU4, the Channel Isles should be a province. Not before we have proper Old Swiss Confederacy mechanics (far more important to European history), proper mechanics to represent the multiple major and minor conflicts that are bundled into the 30 Year War, proper dynastic mechanics that are not lolRNG and more others.

 

[Edmon]

I think there are a few people from San Marino who would like to have a word with you.

And, again, you're putting words in my mouth out of your nationalistic anger. I didn't say it was unimportant, I said there are plenty of other places deserving of attention before the Channel Islands.

Would they? And what would they say? That they came up with the idea 400 years later than Jersey did?

 

[Edmon]

What contribution did Jersey have to the economy of England/Great Britain in the period covered by EU4? Did it perhaps house some mighty fortifications that rebuffed attacks on the Isles from the evul Baguette? Is there ANY mechanic that can translate the importance of the CI to keeping the Channel impassable and defending the Isles?

The answer to that is: None. No. No. in that order. There is no reason that, given the mechanics of EU4, the Channel Isles should be a province.

Read, the wiki, it's made it simple for you.

The answers to your questions are:
1) Yes, Jersey's pure money started to lead to the economic failure of English currency and had to be devalued by force.
2) Yes, many times and in three separate and critical wars.
3) I have already described such a thing in this very thread.

 

[Grand Historian]

Would they? And what would they say? That they came up with the idea 400 years later than Jersey did?

That they actually came up with the idea on their own and it wasn't put on them by someone else?

Likewise, if we really want to get technical, Constitutions - documents defining the roles and limits of a Government and the rights of its citizens - had existed long before Jersey or San Marino.

 

[Edmon]

That they actually came up with the idea on their own and it wasn't put on them by someone else?

Likewise, if we really want to get technical, Constitutions - documents defining the roles and limits of a Government and the rights of its citizens - had existed long before Jersey or San Marino.

Well, way to move the goal posts. Just double down since it's too hard to admit you were wrong.

You googled it and mistook oldest SURVIVING documentation for oldest record of the concept being used and it working.

If you admit this, progress can be made. Otherwise, you only prove that you cannot admit when you are wrong.

Jersey has a huge, detailed and complex history in which most of the records of the last 900 years or so actually survived. So it makes it trivially easy to defend it's importance for this reason alone.

 

[Grand Historian]

Well, way to move the goal posts. Just double down since it's too hard to admit you were wrong.

You googled it and mistook oldest SURVIVING documentation for oldest record of the concept being used and it working.

If you admit this, progress can be made. Otherwise, you only prove that you cannot admit when you are wrong.

What? I don't quite get what you're raving about now, but once again, you're missing the point.

And even through all your bluster, you're still not present a feasible case for a Jersey tag. Why should it be added in? Because you and maybe three other people want it to gratify their Balkan-level nationalism? That's lag that's better spent elsewhere.

 

[Edmon]

Shame, you can't admit you were wrong on constitutionalism even though you so obviously were, additionally mis-read what I said and then hanged yourself with bad google-fu. I'm done here, at least with you.

Case for Jersey:
1) Place for England and France to fight each other where neither has any home ground advantage.
2) High historical importance.
3) The government is an extremely rare example of a noble and later democratic republic.
4) Easy to add events and flavour, due to extensive history throughout the period.
5) A place where other nations can negatively impact and get a foot hold against France or England without actually being in France or England.

 

[Koramei]

I used to think Channel Islands would be cool to add as a hopping ground between England and France, but now that we're getting the straight, eh. As long as Bornholm exists though I think the "relevance" argument is a bit dumb, and they are in a strategically interesting position.

Paradox have said in the past that Hong Kong wasn't relevant in the time period, and while that's true, this game is about making our own history, and foreign trade was (as a policy) directed through Canton by the Chinese governments, so it makes a lot of sense to add another exclave to that so Canton can be split up more. It's also only like 20 years out of place for the game, not stretching that much really to add it.