construction troops, labour battalions, or whatever they may be called, engaged in building military roads and airfields and (concrete) fortifications, are very different from combat engineers.
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Should the British Raj's "Agrarian Society" and South Africa's "History of Segregation" and Canada's "Conscription Crysis" national spirits be nerfed?
- Thread starter Zeprion
- Start date
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Taking a piece of infantry equipment as literally a rifle would mean (assuming 0.4 production cost for 1918 variant) that merely ~60 of those cost as much as a 1936 plane (i.e. Bf 109) or a 1934 heavy tank, which sounds rather unrealistic.
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I know. But combat engineers did engage in construction and were part of a combat division, although their role was non-combat.
Hoi4's production as a whole has big realism issues. Starting from what resources each country had to how much a certain piece of equipment is supposed to cost. Some planes cost as much as a tank and take twice as much to complete. I don't suppose there is an "Air Kit" for this one too.
But you don't produce Mortars seperatly, they are all part of the Infantey Equipment or the Infantry Kit.
This game does not have production of infantry mortars separately from infantry equipment in the base game, which is instead there as a research path giving passive bonuses under the Support Weapons one.
Infantry carried mortars are more things of this size, which is distinct from the artillery research branch.
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All three of the nations mentioned by OP are some of the worst when it comes to historicity in their focus trees, and all of them ought to be completely reworked. My input for each of these nations regarding these focuses:
Canada: "National Steel Car" and "Send in the Zombies" should not be mutually exclusive. This would resolve Canada's massive issue where you have to choose between sacrificing your manpower or your industry. To make up for it, "Send in the Zombies" should hit you with a massive stability debuff to represent the tensions between Anglo and French Canadians. If you handle the French Canadian situation poorly, Quebec should declare war or independence. Handling it historically should represent some sort of status quo. Handling it "right" should remove any debuffs related to the conscription crisis. So yeah, my verdict is Canada's manpower problems should be solvable by the player, albeit in ahistorical mode.
South Africa: The worst focus tree in the game besides India as far as accuracy is concerned. The fact that you can literally end apartheid (and your manpower debuffs) with the simple "Expand the Cape Corps" focus is absurd. Compounding that issue is that you can even end apartheid as fascist South Africa. This misrepresents the ugly history of South Africa so much. Only a black communist revolution, which was totally unrealistic for the time period, would have fully ended apartheid. Yet, if you go communist as South Africa, you still have to go all the way down the focus tree to "Expand the Cape Corps" to end apartheid. Overall, this is just a disaster focus tree. My verdict here is that South Africa's manpower problems should NOT be solvable, except in a contrived communist focus tree branch.
India: Muslims in the British Raj, encouraged by Muhammad Jinnah and the Muslim League, punched above their weight as soldiers in WWII. The "Marginalized Muslim Community" gives the false impression that the opposite was true. Also ridiculous is the fact that India still has the "Marginalized Muslim Community" debuff if Pakistan goes independent. It is true that India's Muslims continued to be marginalized after Pakistani independence, but the debuff is clearly supposed to represent the Pakistan situation. My verdict is that India's "Marginalized Muslim Community" debuff should be modified to affect India in significant, negative ways, but not its manpower.
Canada: "National Steel Car" and "Send in the Zombies" should not be mutually exclusive. This would resolve Canada's massive issue where you have to choose between sacrificing your manpower or your industry. To make up for it, "Send in the Zombies" should hit you with a massive stability debuff to represent the tensions between Anglo and French Canadians. If you handle the French Canadian situation poorly, Quebec should declare war or independence. Handling it historically should represent some sort of status quo. Handling it "right" should remove any debuffs related to the conscription crisis. So yeah, my verdict is Canada's manpower problems should be solvable by the player, albeit in ahistorical mode.
South Africa: The worst focus tree in the game besides India as far as accuracy is concerned. The fact that you can literally end apartheid (and your manpower debuffs) with the simple "Expand the Cape Corps" focus is absurd. Compounding that issue is that you can even end apartheid as fascist South Africa. This misrepresents the ugly history of South Africa so much. Only a black communist revolution, which was totally unrealistic for the time period, would have fully ended apartheid. Yet, if you go communist as South Africa, you still have to go all the way down the focus tree to "Expand the Cape Corps" to end apartheid. Overall, this is just a disaster focus tree. My verdict here is that South Africa's manpower problems should NOT be solvable, except in a contrived communist focus tree branch.
India: Muslims in the British Raj, encouraged by Muhammad Jinnah and the Muslim League, punched above their weight as soldiers in WWII. The "Marginalized Muslim Community" gives the false impression that the opposite was true. Also ridiculous is the fact that India still has the "Marginalized Muslim Community" debuff if Pakistan goes independent. It is true that India's Muslims continued to be marginalized after Pakistani independence, but the debuff is clearly supposed to represent the Pakistan situation. My verdict is that India's "Marginalized Muslim Community" debuff should be modified to affect India in significant, negative ways, but not its manpower.
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I have no complete idea why this was disliked to shit, but I'm going to be real here, not just the manpower nerfs, but a complete rework in all honesty.
The Raj needs a big ass focus tree with better industrial focuses, better foreign diplomacy, better military tree, etc. The election thing shouldn't have a world tension limit, and the Raj should be able to seek out even Japanese aid too, not just German. I mean, there is no excuse for it. The Japanese-Indian alliance would be more logical than a German-Indian one at best.
Canada needs to get rid of the exclusivity and needs a better manpower buff. Along with probable ways to be closer to America diplomatically while being in the British Sphere.
The Raj needs a big ass focus tree with better industrial focuses, better foreign diplomacy, better military tree, etc. The election thing shouldn't have a world tension limit, and the Raj should be able to seek out even Japanese aid too, not just German. I mean, there is no excuse for it. The Japanese-Indian alliance would be more logical than a German-Indian one at best.
Canada needs to get rid of the exclusivity and needs a better manpower buff. Along with probable ways to be closer to America diplomatically while being in the British Sphere.
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My bad, I thought this could be found in the artillery section on the right branch, turns out it's for something else. There is however, still no in-game evidence that the infantry equipment is a kit that comes in packs of 10. If that's what they wanted they could have easily added another 0 as the rest of equipment is per piece.This game does not have production of infantry mortars separately from infantry equipment in the base game, which is instead there as a research path giving passive bonuses under the Support Weapons one.
Infantry carried mortars are more things of this size, which is distinct from the artillery research branch.
Neither have I. The only legitimate argument was made against South Africa, quoting that it shouldn't have more manpower than it actually had in World War II, while other nations have cores on regions they are not supposed to have. I too find it weird that the British Raj can work with the Germans but not with the Japanese.
Evidence: ~100 infantry kits are used for a 1000 men battalion. The description of 1936 infantry equipment reads: "Personal and crew served weapons for infantry as well as the various other bits of kit a soldier needs."
Averaging over 10 soldiers amortizes squad level equipment like machine guns (and mortars) which not every single soldier had but a squad did.
Due to technical limitations of the engine, the game is not good with large numbers. You might remember the bug which turned your infantry equipment negative when you exceeded 2 million, remnants of which are still present. A factor of 10 would make this problem arise much earlier (how often did you have 200k+ infantry equipment?).
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Canada: Correct!
SAF: I think the situation are reversed (Black be racist angaist white) and today, slowvy, the situation of economy SAF are slowy be bad for this motive. I think, if you take communism, you exchange a debuff for Manpower for a Debuff on Industry. If you go to fascism you focus on a small but stronger army. If communism to a Large but weak army, strong only with numbers!
India: IF india be fascist i think the indu start a "anti islam campaing" to force conversion(EU4 is back!) or if communist be Atheist, this can nerf the malus, and other branch of focus nerf much the focus (industrialization after indipendence, possibility via fascist or communism)
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They couls be simulated by a national spirit increasing construction of forts, airfields, infrastructure etc.
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Considering all armies used them, it'd be quite pointless. A case could be made for some nations having more of them and with better equipment than others (hauling construction materials by truck is a lot quicker than by horse), but that'd require tying them to in-game construction in the first place, something that is currently abstracted by CIC, which, as you know, is manpower-free in HoI4 (buildings in HoI used to cost manpower before HoI3).
Here's an OOB slide on the FDF on 30.11.1939 from Niehorster's site. You can see construction troops (non-combat engineers) on the right as theatre-level assets. They, and most of the other theatre-level units in this table, are not represented in the game as something that use manpower.
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I agree, these nations are very unfun with the DLC and for no real reason.
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I agree on SAF and Apartheid.
Though I feel like the debuff could be also be lessened by having a focus for creation of a satellite state for the Bantus in an Alt-history democratic and fascist routes, as a nice and "family friendly" way to represent the various ideas of attempting to create a black state in the North, so the Boers and English could try to keep some semblance of stability in Rhodesia and Cape.
And I agree, TFV focus trees are very very weak and desperately need a rework, even Australia, which has a small, but decent focus tree is gimped hard by the fact you have very little ways to go proper crazed ANZAC mode on historical, and Fascist path is over extremely fast, despite being the most interesting in my oppinion.
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The first step in all the games I've played as Canada or Australia was to disable the TFV DLC.
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I dislike India situation the most. Broken beyond belief in base game, but has one of the few crippling unremovable national spirits in the game. They were not the only agrarian society and no other country gets nerfed like that. As it stand right now other countries can use India's manpower better than them via occupation. You should be able to mitigate it in multiple steps based on how many civilian factories you have. Assuming you are free from the British.
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The Problem with these trees is that they are a relic of a different time. They were the first Minors with new trees and I guess people didnt want them getting out of control.
Compared to some newer nations the Negative spirits are actually quite light and actually not to harsh considering you will most likely not see war on your borders.
If I was to make changes it would be this:
Allow Canada to choose both Manpower and Industry focuses. its the one that suffers the most IMO
Remove History of Segregation from a Communist South Africa, its unfortunately historical that Racism took precedence over a need for manpower and South Africa only committed European Whites to the war.
India actually has had a stealth buff to Manpower now thanks to the Compliance Mechanic, allowing you extra manpower from Pak, Burma and Bangladesh states that the RAJ occupies No change really needed here. I would increase the number of Factories given from its focuses though. Getting 1 Factory from a 70 day focus is borderline Trolling.
Compared to some newer nations the Negative spirits are actually quite light and actually not to harsh considering you will most likely not see war on your borders.
If I was to make changes it would be this:
Allow Canada to choose both Manpower and Industry focuses. its the one that suffers the most IMO
Remove History of Segregation from a Communist South Africa, its unfortunately historical that Racism took precedence over a need for manpower and South Africa only committed European Whites to the war.
India actually has had a stealth buff to Manpower now thanks to the Compliance Mechanic, allowing you extra manpower from Pak, Burma and Bangladesh states that the RAJ occupies No change really needed here. I would increase the number of Factories given from its focuses though. Getting 1 Factory from a 70 day focus is borderline Trolling.
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The last (70 days for a focus) are really a trolling! Much CIC or MIC with 70 days! Other NF are more powerfull!
They may not be the only agrarian society, but they are one of the few that are large enough to matter. That this can be gotten around by invaders is a problem that should be fixed, but that is no reason to make India more ahistorical by buffing them. The DLC may nerf India, but that's an improvement in that it improves the historical accuracy. It's a valid argument that this debuff should probobly be included in vanilla as well to improve balance.
Note that it should be incredible hard to change India from agrarian society as India can still be considered agrarian today. You can't simply put all the farmers in uniform as then the country will starve.
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well... I'd argue it makes sense for it to stay... considering modern politics and the reality of what happened once the "Shoe was on the other foot" so to say in SAF....
or replace it with a construction or research debuff, that requires soviet/International Commune help to clear off, as simply replacing Racist group A with Racist group B doesn't exactly change the underlying issues with Segregation within SAF.