Should the British Raj's "Agrarian Society" and South Africa's "History of Segregation" and Canada's "Conscription Crysis" national spirits be nerfed?

[Zeprion]

Three of the Together for Victory DLC nations have recruitable population debuffs:
- Canada starts with -30%
- South Africa starts with -55%
- India starts with -89% (69% + 20%)

These can only be partially fixed via focus tree:
- In Canada, it can either be lowered by 10% or removed completly but this will lead to some factory damage.
- In South Arica, it can be lowered by 15%, leading to -40%.
- In India, it can be lowered by 20%, leading to -69%.

I find this horrible because those nations need manpower. India has a huge population, but when you have a -89% debuff that can be maxed to 69% it's not so huge anymore.
In fact, apart from the cool stuff of going communist/facist and breaking free from Britain, these debuffs make Canada, South Africa and India worse than their no DLC counterparts.

Which is why I suggest to nerf those recruitable population debuffs:
- Canada starts with -20%.
- South Africa starts with -30%
- India starts with -60% (40% + 20%)

After the focus tree, these can be fixed as following:
- Canada -10% or nothing but with factories damage.
- South Africa -15%
- India -40%

Is this change realistic? Yes.
- Canada had French oppoose the conscription. But not all French.
- South Africa had segragation. But that doesn't mean they weren't allowed to serve in the army.
- India was a heavily agrarian society. But the reason they didn't recruit peasants was culture rather than necessity. Which can be easily changed when the situation calls for it.

 

[Dlin369]

I think they should be converted to state modifiers now that those exist and some decisions/events should help you lower it

For India I think the manpower limit should be kept low as long as it’s a puppet - that way Britain doesn’t basically have a soldier printer.

 

[bitmode]

these debuffs make Canada, South Africa and India worse than their no DLC counterparts.

A DLC is not a power up. IMHO these debuffs should be in the base game too, to the extent that they remained unaddressed on the historical path.

 

[Spelaren]

I have seen civil war india lose all their debuffs and get cores on all of India.

 

[Fulmen]

No.

- South Africa had segragation. But that doesn't mean they weren't allowed to serve in the army.

A moot point when the types of units they served in aren't represented in HoI4.

 

[Zeprion]

A DLC is not a power up. IMHO these debuffs should be in the base game too, to the extent that they remained unaddressed on the historical path.

A DLC is not a nerf either. If the DLC nation is worse than its non-DLC version counterpart, what's the point playing that nation with the DLC?

We have some nations that start out way worse than their non-DLC version, most notably Bulgaria and Turkey, but to compensate for this they can end up being so OP late game.

No.
A moot point when the types of units they served in aren't represented in HoI4.
View attachment 652548

The paragraph in question is easily represented by engineers, military police and medics, all of which are represented in HoI4.

It's also worth pointing out for perspective that while 80.000 blacks served in the army. Some 200.000 whites and 40.000 mixed race severed in the army. That makes the blacks about 25% of the whole South African army, or 40% if you include the mixed race too.

 

[Fulmen]

The paragraph in question is easily represented by engineers, military police and medics, all of which are represented in HoI4.

Wrong. In-game engineers are specifically combat engineers, not construction troops. Military police are military police, South African blacks did not function in that role, nor were they medics, but medical orderlies, likely in hospitals, which are not represented in the game. Whether some served in triage centres (covered by in-game "field hospital battalions"), I do not know. Either way the amount would be too small to justify any change.

It's also pointing out for perspective that while 80.000 blacks served in the army. Some 200.000 whites and 40.000 mixed race severed in the army. That makes the blacks about 25% of the whole South African army, or 40% if you include the mixed race too.

HoI4 only covers some 20-30% of real-life manpower sinks (varies a little depending on country).

 

[Zeprion]

Wrong. In-game engineers are specifically combat engineers, not construction troops. Military police are military police, South African blacks did not function in that role, nor were they medics, but medical orderlies, likely in hospitals, which are not represented in the game. Whether some served in triage centres (covered by in-game "field hospital battalions"), I do not know, either way the amount would be too small to justify any change.

"A combat engineer (also called field engineer, pioneer or sapper) is a type of military engineer who performs military engineering tasks in support of land forces (Armies or Marines) combat operations. Combat engineers perform a variety of military engineering, mining, construction and demolition tasks under combat conditions."
Field Hospital is not limited to field medics. They were in the army, likely serving in field hospital battalions, not in civilian hospitals.
The paragraph you posted says "and policing the South African coastline".

HoI4 only covers some 20-30% of real-life manpower sinks.

How do you know that? They are not even using the 1935 census but the 1930. Most nations already start with less manpower than they should have.

 

[RAID186]

They shouldn't be nerfed. These were serious issues for these nations and were not resolved within the timeline in any effective manner.

 

[George Parr]

"A combat engineer (also called field engineer, pioneer or sapper) is a type of military engineer who performs military engineering tasks in support of land forces (Armies or Marines) combat operations. Combat engineers perform a variety of military engineering, mining, construction and demolition tasks under combat conditions."
Field Hospital is not limited to field medics. They were in the army, likely serving in field hospital battalions, not in civilian hospitals.
The paragraph you posted says "and policing the South African coastline".

Why exactly are you posting a quote that directly supports the person you are answering to while disagreeing with your own stance?

Quite frankly, I don't see any reason why these things should be changed, unless there is significant evidence which suggests that there were any meaningful numbers involved in the war which aren't covered by the game yet. Modifiers exist to represent a situation. So far your argument basically amounts to "lets ignore what the numbers are based on and just go with something that makes the countries more powerful". "India has a large population, but its manpower isn't that large due to these modifiers" isn't in any way a sufficient argument. The modifiers didn't drop from the sky. These nations have restrictions on their manpower because these restrictions did exist in real life. And that's what the numbers should be based on, not on whether you want them to have more manpower or not.

 

[Zeprion]

Why exactly are you posting a quote that directly supports the person you are answering to while disagreeing with your own stance?

Why exactly are you going for a loaded question? Have you stopped beating your wife?
Wrong. In-game engineers are specifically combat engineers, "not construction troops".
"A combat engineer (also called field engineer, pioneer or sapper) is a type of military engineer who performs military engineering tasks in support of land forces (Armies or Marines) combat operations. Combat engineers perform a variety of military engineering, mining, "construction and demolition tasks" under combat conditions."
Who do you think builds those trenches that gives you entrenchment bonus in Hearts of Iron 4?

Quite frankly, I don't see any reason why these things should be changed.

Because it's more fun to play with more manpower, and the AI won't make high use of that extra manpower anyway so it's likely most things will stay the same.

unless there is significant evidence which suggests that there were any meaningful numbers involved in the war which aren't covered by the game yet. Modifiers exist to represent a situation.

Yes, if only there was such a thing.

- Canada had French oppoose the conscription. But not all French.
- South Africa had segragation. But that doesn't mean they weren't allowed to serve in the army.
- India was a heavily agrarian society. But the reason they didn't recruit peasants was culture rather than necessity. Which can be easily changed when the situation calls for it.

So far your argument basically amounts to "lets ignore what the numbers are based on and just go with something that makes the countries more powerful". "India has a large population, but its manpower isn't that large due to these modifiers" isn't in any way a sufficient argument. The modifiers didn't drop from the sky. These nations have restrictions on their manpower because these restrictions did exist in real life. And that's what the numbers should be based on, not on whether you want them to have more manpower or not.

So far your argument basically amounts to "lets ignore everything this guy said because I disagree with his suggestion and make an argument whose answer exists in the original post".

 

[Fulmen]

"A combat engineer (also called field engineer, pioneer or sapper) is a type of military engineer who performs military engineering tasks in support of land forces (Armies or Marines) combat operations. Combat engineers perform a variety of military engineering, mining, construction and demolition tasks under combat conditions."

Yep.

Field Hospital is not limited to field medics. They were in the army, likely serving in field hospital battalions, not in civilian hospitals.

Already covered this.

The paragraph you posted says "and policing the South African coastline".

Not military police.

How do you know that? They are not even using the 1935 census but the 1930. Most nations already start with less manpower than they should have.

Because HoI4 manpower sinks only include combat troops, most of their immediate support elements and a limited amount of garrison troops. Essentially the entire logistics apparatus, the single biggest user of manpower in any combatant army of WW2, for instance, costs no manpower in HoI4. E.g. over 16 million Americans served in WW2, but only a fraction of those in units representable in HoI4. Considering that an in-game force of for example 500k men is representative of 1-1.5M men IRL, there's actually too much manpower in the game, not too little.

 

[Zeprion]

Yep.

Yeah, yep.

Already covered this.

While being wrong about where they served.

Not military police.

Just military men policing.

Because HoI4 manpower sinks only include combat troops, most of their immediate support elements and a limited amount of garrison troops. Essentially the entire logistics apparatus, the single biggest user of manpower in any combatant army of WW2, costs no manpower in HoI4. E.g. over 16 million Americans served in WW2, but only a fraction of those in units representable in HoI4. Considering that an in-game force of for example 500k men is representative of 1-1.5M men IRL, there's actually too much manpower in the game, not too little.

It does not, you just don't manage them. Just because the game says "infantry battalion" it doesn't mean that infantry battalion is exclusively combat troops. Wrong. Some World War II divisions had almost 40% non-combat troops, some even over 50%. The cost of the entire logistics apparatus is included in the cost of a division.

 

[Fulmen]

Who do you think builds those trenches that gives you entrenchment bonus in Hearts of Iron 4?

Overwhelmingly, combat engineers. The reason the distinction in terminology exists is that Anglosphere countries called their construction troops engineers. However these were not a part of divisional TOE (usually they were assets of higher tiers in the chain of command) and generally they worked on things like improving infrastructure in the rear. These troops are not represented in HoI4.

Yeah, yep.

While being wrong about where they served.

Just military men policing.

It does not, you just don't manage them. Just because the game says "infantry battalion" it doesn't mean that infantry battalion is exclusively combat troops. Wrong. Some World War II divisions had almost 40% non-combat troops, some even over 50%. The cost of the entire logistics apparatus is included in the cost of a division.

Zeprion no offense, but it looks to me that you do not possess an understanding of the aforementioned military roles and organizations. Therefore I don't think there's anything to be gained by continuing this discussion. Good day.

 

[kettyo]

The cost of the entire logistics apparatus is included in the cost of a division.

Wrong. Logistic personnel wouldn't all get lost in case of an encirclement

 

[Zeprion]

Overwhelmingly, combat engineers. The reason the distinction in terminology exists is that Anglosphere countries called their construction troops engineers. However these were not a part of divisional TOE (usually they were assets of higher tiers in the chain of command) and generally they worked on things like improving infrastructure in the rear. These troops are not represented in HoI4.

So the combat engineers constructed those trenches, the same combat engineers who are not construction troops? Hearts of Iron 4 does not go that in-depth to represent the whole logistics apparatus. And honestly, I wouldn't like a game where I would have to manually transport food to units or assign divisions to build infrastructure. But it does a good job at generalizing them.

Zeprion no offense, but it looks to me that you do not possess an understanding of the aforementioned roles and military organizations. Therefore I don't think there's anything to be gained by continuing this discussion. Good day.

None taken, just consider why an infantry battalion costs 1.000 manpower but 100 guns, and I'm not talking about the Soviet Union. What are the other 900 people doing? Good day.

Wrong. Logistic personnel wouldn't all get lost in case of an encirclement

It's a generalization, better than manually having to manage logistics in my opinion.

 

[klaymen_sk]

Three of the Together for Victory DLC nations have recruitable population debuffs:
- Canada starts with -30%
- South Africa starts with -55%
- India starts with -89% (69% + 20%)

These can only be partially fixed via focus tree:
- In Canada, it can either be lowered by 10% or removed completly but this will lead to some factory damage.
- In South Arica, it can be lowered by 15%, leading to -40%.
- In India, it can be lowered by 20%, leading to -69%.


After the focus tree, these can be fixed as following:
- Canada -10% or nothing but with factories damage.
- South Africa -15%
- India -40%

Eh? South Africa's manpower debuff can be completely removed by the focus right below Reconstitute the Cape Corps that lowers the manpower penalty by 15%.

I'm talking about the focus Expand the Cape Corps, mutually exclusive with Outlaw Strikes. However, Outlaw Strikes means you will have -5% recruitable population factor due to the Cheap Labor national spirit from a NF two positions above (Native Laws Amendment Act), so that option will make your manpower situation even worse.

 

[DicRoNero]

Because it's more fun to play with more manpower,

It's equally less fun to play against someone with extra manpower. This alone is not a valid arguement.

 

[Voigt]

None taken, just consider why an infantry battalion costs 1.000 manpower but 100 guns, and I'm not talking about the Soviet Union. What are the other 900 people doing? Good day.

Easy, a batallion doesn't need 100 Guns, they need 100 Infantry Kits which is verx different.
1 Infantry Kit includes stuff like Mortar and Infantry AT equipment and equips a whole Squad of 10 people.

 

[Zeprion]

Easy, a batallion doesn't need 100 Guns, they need 100 Infantry Kits which is verx different.
1 Infantry Kit includes stuff like Mortar and Infantry AT equipment and equips a whole Squad of 10 people.

A moot point when infantry kits aren't represented in Hearts of Iron 4. The closest thing is infantry and support equipment, but it nowhere says that it's a kit that comes in packs of 10. While mortars are researched and produced separately from guns.