Should Plasma be Large Slot only?

[Lazerus Artificial]

Just a heads up:

Pushing Plasma to L only would:

1) Not change the fact that there's a best Battleship.
2) Not change the fact that there would be essentially one Cruiser which is the best ship in the game.
3) Maybe, possibly make lasers more effective. (it would probably just make other weapon types dominate in the medium slot, perhaps Gauss)

Honestly, I'd rather see buffs to missiles and Destroyer evasion, a re-design for lasers, and a nerf to Cruiser health.

thats not the point at all, there is always a numerical "best" you can have.
the point is, that plasma is simply the best thing you can have since it has no drawbacks and is basically a a T6 Laser at the end.
Other weapons are perfectly fine with Sidegrade-Techs, just Plasma ignores that rule. As i said, Two Large Plasmas are even nearly equal to 1 XL Lance, while 2 Large Kinetics are still vastly different to 1 XL Giga Cannon

redesigning ships doesnt fit here at all
redesigning lasers wouldnt be needed if plasma would actually follow the rules
and buffs to missiles is a whole different topic where we should wait until thrusday when we get Utopias Changelog where the missiles are buffed. Of course Missiles need a rework, but plasma is exactly the opposite end of the balance problems

 

[terrycloth]

thats not the point at all, there is always a numerical "best" you can have.
the point is, that plasma is simply the best thing you can have since it has no drawbacks and is basically a a T6 Laser at the end.
Other weapons are perfectly fine with Sidegrade-Techs, just Plasma ignores that rule. As i said, Two Large Plasmas are even nearly equal to 1 XL Lance, while 2 Large Kinetics are still vastly different to 1 XL Giga Cannon

redesigning ships doesnt fit here at all
redesigning lasers wouldnt be needed if plasma would actually follow the rules
and buffs to missiles is a whole different topic where we should wait until thrusday when we get Utopias Changelog where the missiles are buffed. Of course Missiles need a rework, but plasma is exactly the opposite end of the balance problems

Plasma follows the rules. Lasers are overly nerfed or perhaps gauss cannons are overly buff. The T-2 weapon upgrades are not supposed to be a sidegrade -- they're supposed to be better, like T-3 kinetic artillery is better than autocannons and gauss both.

Plasma is used a lot because you want most of your damage to be armor piercing because armored hull points are so much more effective than shields: almost ten times more effective per hit point (and it's trivial to get twice as effective and easy to get four times as effective) even before you take specific shield-destroying weapons into account which make shield hit points worth half or a third as much. Only shield capacitors (or extremely badly designed laser-only ships) make them worth using on anything larger than a destroyer.

So, really, shield hit points should be multiplied by a factor of ten. This would make putting shields on your starting corvettes actually worth it since it doubles their cost and needs to quadruple their hit points to be worth doing that.

 

[scaper12123]

I'm tempted to agree with this as I view plasma canons the same way I think of them in FTL: Faster Than Light, being staples of the well equipped fighter ship. But I see what you mean from a gameplay perspective.

 

[TomatoJuice]

How about the opposite route?

Make Plasma S only.
Make it the superior corvette weapon and maybe encourage the S slot use on bigger ships.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Plasma follows the rules. Lasers are overly nerfed or perhaps gauss cannons are overly buff. The T-2 weapon upgrades are not supposed to be a sidegrade -- they're supposed to be better, like T-3 kinetic artillery is better than autocannons and gauss both.

Plasma is used a lot because you want most of your damage to be armor piercing because armored hull points are so much more effective than shields: almost ten times more effective per hit point (and it's trivial to get twice as effective and easy to get four times as effective) even before you take specific shield-destroying weapons into account which make shield hit points worth half or a third as much. Only shield capacitors (or extremely badly designed laser-only ships) make them worth using on anything larger than a destroyer.

So, really, shield hit points should be multiplied by a factor of ten. This would make putting shields on your starting corvettes actually worth it since it doubles their cost and needs to quadruple their hit points to be worth doing that.

Let me show you where plasma breaks the rules then:

Lasers advantage scales linear with size
15% - 30% - 60% AP

kinetics AP also scales linear with
0% - 15% - 30% AP for MDs
0% - 10% - 20% AP for ACs
the Mega has then 50% for its XL size, thats the average value of 2L kinetics.

Plasma scales...weird
60% - 80% - 90% AP
Remember: The Lance has 90% AP, Arc has 100% AP

so thats where plasma breaks the rules. because it ends with XL-Values it is like a mini-lance.
to follow the rules, plasma would need to start at a lower value to be linear like other weapons
22.5% - 45% - 90% AP that way it would still be stronger than lasers, but it wouldnt break the scaling
still it is a mini-lance then with 90% ap, as i said, 2L Plasma deal nearly the same damage as 1XL Lance.
sure 2L Gauss deal similar avg damage as 1XL Giga, but the giga has more AP.
so to follow the rules again plasma needs another ap nerf

but i agree with the shield hitpoints, just like armor the shields should scale with ship size. also the recharge rate between Medium and Large shields needs a fix. the HP scales with size as usual with 1L=2M=4S but the regen is 1L=1.5M=3S

 

[Chikanuk]

Totally agree. But in return we need more ap for S and M slots - mb small buff to Laser AP?
But im sure - plasma really need nerf. Right now full M plasma cruisers with some anti shield support - strongest build in whole game.

 

[Slynx]

but plasma is the 2nd tier of lasers. same as autocannons for kinetic and torpedoes.
if you ner plasma to be L slot only you'll loose 2nd tier s-m-l weapon.

Making plasmas large-only balances them by making it impossible to stack 5 of them on your ship.

6L battleship (or xl+4L) 2L cruiser 1Ldestroey. nothing will really change

what can we see here?

we also see that plasma has slower rate of fire

Two Large Plasmas are even nearly equal to 1 XL Lance,

i honestly doubt that you'll use 2 L plasma if you arleady unlocked T.Lance

Make it the superior corvette weapon and maybe encourage the S slot use on bigger ships.

then everyone will stop using lasers entirely and switch to mono-kinetic (except for TL)

60% - 80% - 90% AP
Remember: The Lance has 90% AP, Arc has 100% AP

iit's the same linear growth...but with hardcap of 90%.
so it may be 60-80-100 and 160% for TL

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

but plasma is the 2nd tier of lasers. same as autocannons for kinetic and torpedoes.
if you ner plasma to be L slot only you'll loose 2nd tier s-m-l weapon.

6L battleship (or xl+4L) 2L cruiser 1Ldestroey. nothing will really change

they are not supposed to be T2 lasers!
Artillery and Autocannons both have big advantages and disadvantages when compared to basic Mass Drivers, they are sidegrades not upgrades.
Artillery has more range and more damage per hit, but is slower and has less AP than a MD, its also limited to L slots.
Autocannons are faster and more accurate, but they have lower range and no shieldbonus.
Torpedos deal more damage and have a bonus against shields and armor, but they cant track anymore and are limited to special slots
still the average damage on all of them is very similar based on research-tier.
all weapons end at research tier "tier3cost4", at that tier they are equally strong with slight differences in mechanics. all but plasma! plasma says: "im a T6 laser now"

only plasma is an upgrade over lasers with a very slightly reduced accuracy (avg damage is still similar), but a massive advantage to AP like a Lance

we also see that plasma has slower rate of fire

and still the average damage is very similar, just like it is on other weapons.
all weapons are designed to have similar avg damage values with different values for accuracy, minmax, and cooldown. it literally doesnt matter.

i honestly doubt that you'll use 2 L plasma if you arleady unlocked T.Lance

show me the Corvette, Destroyer and Cruiser that can equip a Lance please. Also Show me the Battleship that has more than one Lance

then everyone will stop using lasers entirely and switch to mono-kinetic (except for TL)

OR Lasers are more dominant then, using large plasma against large ships and not universal plasma against everything.

iit's the same linear growth...but with hardcap of 90%.
so it may be 60-80-100 and 160% for TL

not even close.
all the other weapons follow the 4S=2M=1L rule. Only plasma has a special scaling with 60-80-90.

 

[Emraldis]

You aren't building anti-armor anymore if you're using autocannons, though. The ridiculous armor-peircing is what makes plasma guns OP, which is why ships with lots of them are so effective, which is why people build those kinds of ships. Making plasmas large-only balances them by making it impossible to stack 5 of them on your ship.

I don't think we'd have a problem where people skip small ships so they can use plasma cannons, because doing so when you can only have 1 or 2 per capital ship would be a terrible idea. You would lose more in opportunity cost than you'd gain in stacked armor-piercing. You could even still build anti-armor, but your amor-piercing would be a much more-balanced average of like 30% instead of 90%*.

The only reason people would still try to pile on plasma after this would be if they googled "best weapon stellaris" and only found outdated information. I certainly hope those aren't the kind of "strategic thinkers" that PDS wants to design for.

* I know that doesn't just mean a flat 30%-40% AP among all weapons, but it does mean that you only get one hull-melting terror blast per salvo instead of 7. I think this will make a lot of difference overall

Ah, but small ships never have armor, so no need for AP.

 

[Slynx]

they are not supposed to be T2 lasers!

but Plasma is a T2 laser tech.

special scaling with 60-80-90.

20*(size)+40, max(90). same linear formula with the little addition of +C in the end.

show me the Corvette, Destroyer and Cruiser that can equip a Lance please. Also Show me the Battleship that has more than one Lance

Spoiler: here

 

[Emraldis]

but Plasma is a T2 laser tech.


20*(techlevel)+40, max(90). same linear formula with the little addition of +C in the end.

Spoiler: here

wow, what version of the game are you playing on? Because it's definitely not the latest version...

 

[Slynx]

wow, what version of the game are you playing on? Because it's definitely not the latest version...

woah-woah! i were asked to show you the picture. not to use the latest version of the game.
next time express wishes more accurately

 

[Emraldis]

woah-woah! i were asked to show you the picture. not to use the latest version of the game.
next time express wishes more accurately

Wasn't me who made the request.

 

[Slynx]

Wasn't me who made the request.

yes. that's why i edited my original answer and removed all "you\your"

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

but Plasma is a T2 laser tech.


20*(techlevel)+40, max(90). same linear formula with the little addition of +C in the end.

plasma is not a T2 Lasertech.
t1 plasma is tier2cost1, the same as t3 UV Lasers
t2 plasma is tier2cost3, the same as t4 X-Ray Lasers
t3 plasma is tier3cost1, the same as t5 Gamma Lasers
Plasma does not even require lasertech before you can research it, just like disruptors dont need it.
plasma is tier 2 ENERGY tech, not tier 2 LASER tech. each tier of plasma has an equal tier of lasers, yet plasma is better.
at tier3cost1 it is basically a t6 laser, only a minor decrease in accuracy and speed compared to lasers (75<80) but still almost the same average damage (11.29<12.05). Still it has 30% more AP.

i have no idea where you have that formula from, but it doesnt make sense. all the other weapons scale with size, not with techlevel.
Small Laser = 15%
Medium Laser = 30% (2*15%)
Large Laser = 60% (2*30% or 4*15%)

 

[Slynx]

i have no idea where you have that formula from,

oh, right. i used techlevel instead of size. my bad. fixed

just add a var "size". small.size=1, medium.size=2 large.size=4 xl.size=8, X*size+C
Laser 15*(size)+0 = 15 for small 30 for medium 60 for large. if there will ever be xl lasers they will be 90% (actually 120% but cuz max is 90) = 90%
same with plasma 20*size+40

i'd better be worried about kinetics cuz it didn't follow the same progression.
edit: yeah, right. it's better to represent it as 0%-X-2X so missiles and kinetics will fit the same formula.
then laser will be 0-15-45 +15%native ap ... hmm...doesn't fit
and plasma will be 0-20-40 +60%native ap (max 90)

t1 plasma is tier2cost1, the same as t3 UV Lasers

autocannon cost the same as mass driver3
so it fits your formula.

tech_autocannons_1 = {
area = engineering
cost = @tier2cost1
tier = 2

tech_plasma_1 = {
area = physics
cost = @tier2cost1
tier = 2

but let's whine about torpedoes then. they didn't follow it. NERF NERF!

#Space Torpedoes
tech_torpedoes_1 = {
area = engineering
cost = @tier1cost2
tier = 1

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

oh, right. i used techlevel instead of size. my bad. fixed

just add a var "size". small.size=1, medium.size=2 large.size=4 xl.size=8, X*size+C
Laser 15*(size)+0 = 15 for small 30 for medium 60 for large. if there will ever be xl lasers they will be 90% (actually 120% but cuz max is 90) = 90%
same with plasma 20*size+40

i'd better be worried about kinetics cuz it didn't follow the same progression.


autocannon cost the same as mass driver3
so it fits your formula.


but let's whine about torpedoes then. they didn't follow it. NERF NERF!

as you just said, plasma uses a special formula. so its different.
kinetics start the ap with medium sized weapons and are then doubled for the next bigger size (because 1L = 2M)
there is no special "formula" like you try to invent, the values are simply doubled with each bigger size. thats how avg damage works too. 1M weapons deals the same damage as 2S weapons.

torps are completely different since they have an additional layer of defense, PD. Also they are limited to one specific slot that is only available on 2 ships. Remember that they were kinda OP before? Because they had the same issue that Plasma still have? They were upgraded missiles, just like plasma is an upgraded laser

also there IS technically an XL Laser.
The Lance requires T5 Lasers, just like the Mega requires T5 Mass Drivers.
the mega has damage like 2 L mass drivers, but since its size is even bigger, it has even more AP.
same goes for the Lance>Laser...but again, plasma breaks that rule.
2L Plasma deal the same damage as 1XL Lance, yet Plasma has a stronger bonus effect with 90% AP and -20% Shield, while the lance has 90% AP and -33% Shield.

 

[Slynx]

as you just said, plasma uses a special formula. so its different.

lasers uses special formula. cuz it start at 15 not 0
but plasma uses the same logic as kinetic\missiles. but with additional AP on top

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

lasers uses special formula. cuz it start at 15 not 0
but plasma uses the same logic as kinetic\missiles. but with additional AP on top

ever thought that maybe lasers were meant as anti-armor weapons and thats why they have ap on all sizes?
kinetics got the AP with a later patch for the bigger sizes because armor was too strong. initially there was not even the shield bonus

 

[Foefaller]

Just a heads up:

Pushing Plasma to L only would:

1) Not change the fact that there's a best Battleship.
2) Not change the fact that there would be essentially one Cruiser which is the best ship in the game.
3) Maybe, possibly make lasers more effective. (it would probably just make other weapon types dominate in the medium slot, perhaps Gauss)

Honestly, I'd rather see buffs to missiles and Destroyer evasion, a re-design for lasers, and a nerf to Cruiser health.

I thought the best Cruiser had 2 KA, which if L-only Plasma was a thing, they would have to take something else for the M slots?