Should Planet Ascension cost Influence?

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Ryika

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The idea that Influence is the resource for external matters, and Unity is the Resource for internal matters is neat, thematically, but I believe that when it comes to Planet Ascensions, it doesn't really work out all that well from a mechanical perspective.

To me, there are two arguments for making Planet Ascension cost Influence:
1.) Planet Ascensions are most relevant for empires with few planets, since every Ascension will benefit a bigger part of your overall empire. An empire that does not wish to expand horizontally currently does not have a lot of use for Influence: They don't want to expand, they don't want to Claim, and it would be nice to have an alternative to spamming dozens of habitats.
2.) A small empire is bound to have a lower amount of overall production, so it seems counter-intuitive and counter-productive to me that they would need to produce their Ascension Resources through jobs, instead of making use of the one Resource (Influence) that isn't heavily tied into the industry. Especially since these empires are also the ones who benefit from running Edicts, which also cost Unity.

Overall, it seems to me that Ascension-heavy empires would work best as their own "archetype": A tall empire that does not spam habitats and instead focuses on improving the actual planets that it has. If Ascensions had a semi-static Influence Cost (X + Y per existing Level of Ascension on the planet), then it could function as the primary way of (not actual, but in effect) "Expansion" for that archetype, while also still allowing wider empires to throw a few levels of Ascension on some key worlds (like Ecus or Research centers) when they have the spare resources.

Maybe I'm missing some obvious problem with this implementation, but I feel like this would lead to a much more interesting implementation than what we have now.
 
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Frydendahl89

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The major issue with this is the simple fact that influence is almost worthless after the first 50-80 years in 3.3. in other words, it's not really a great sacrifice to pay influence to ascend a planet...
 
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Ryika

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The major issue with this is the simple fact that influence is almost worthless after the first 50-80 years in 3.3. in other words, it's not really a great sacrifice to pay influence to ascend a planet...
Well, the sacrifice would be that you're not using the Influence to expand or to build habitats.
 
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Moonspring

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The major issue with this is the simple fact that influence is almost worthless after the first 50-80 years in 3.3. in other words, it's not really a great sacrifice to pay influence to ascend a planet...

What makes Influence almost worthless by that point of the game?
..not having enough options to spend it on, thereby reducing or even removing the opportunity cost to spending the resource. If you have nothing to spend a resource on, then naturally it will become worthless. This is why for example Minerals could become useless before 3.0 as a result of not having enough Alloy/Consumer jobs unlocked. Whereas in 3.x Minerals never become useless as Alloy/Consumer jobs arent locked anymore.

Adding a major expenditure for Influence would make Influence more valuable again. Planetary ascension is expensive, and becomes increasingly more expensive with each upgrade. That is the case for each of the 10 tiers of upgrades, each of which only apply to the single planet in question. As is already the case with its current Unity cost, even if we were to assume that no Unity is used for anything else. In other words, it would become a great sacrifice to spend it.

It wouldnt be a sacrifice now.. because now planetary ascension doesnt cost influence yet.

Simple facts are often not all that simple when you take a closer look at them.
 
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Sanvone

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I had the same idea. Given how I only spend influence on Habitats lately it would give good alternative. So you have to choose between claiming systems, using favours in galactic senate, planetary prospecting & mastering the nature, habitats, ringworlds, diplomacy actions upkeep.

Haven't played beta so does influence is still needed for internal politic actions (supressing/embracing different parties)?
 
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Ffc

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I had the same idea. Given how I only spend influence on Habitats lately it would give good alternative. So you have to choose between claiming systems, using favours in galactic senate, planetary prospecting & mastering the nature, habitats, ringworlds, diplomacy actions upkeep.

Haven't played beta so does influence is still needed for internal politic actions (supressing/embracing different parties)?
Not it's not used for factions anymore, it's unity now.
Just like planet interactions (martial law, force expulsion, etc...) is unity now
 

DeanTheDull

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The major issue with this is the simple fact that influence is almost worthless after the first 50-80 years in 3.3. in other words, it's not really a great sacrifice to pay influence to ascend a planet...
Habitats are still a good investment, yo. If anything, they should be unlockable sooner.

Whether you use them as refinery centers to support your upgraded buildings on planets, or you use them as your science and industrial centers to let your planets serve as the resource centers, they're still an efficient planet type in a meta that's still all about efficiency. You don't want to spam habitats you don't have the pops to use, obviously, but they are still growth centers and growth is still good.

In fact, with 3.3's incentive to off-shoring resource-production to other empires to avoid the admin sprawl associated with resource worlds and their workers and districts, there's honestly a good case to be made that it's better to have a habitat in your territory than a resource world. A habitat and a planet have the same sprawl, but a habitat doesn't imply additional system sprawl, has more sprawl-efficient resource districts (3 vs 2 jobs per district), doesn't need urban districts for most of the building slots any given colony needs. Infact, if you just set up and released the resource world as a one-planet vassal, the power dispairty would almost guarantee favorable trade terms, meaning that the habitat could trade Industrial/refined goods for minerals at a more efficient rate than if you owned the planet yourself.

Now, habitat spam gets boring, but it's absolutely useful, especially in builds where you get Nihilistic Acquisition and can fill your planets far faster than growth.
 

Starfury

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I don't think we need to switch ascensions from unity to influence, we need more things to spend influence on besides claiming systems. Otherwise we're just shifting the uselessness problem between unity and influence.

The basic problem is that we have too many resources with too few options to spend them on.

Food -> pop upkeep
Consumer goods -> pop upkeep
Normal strategic resources -> building upkeep
Unity before 3.3 -> Traditions, later Ambitions
Influence in 3.3 -> Expansion, then conquest/habitat spam/megastructures
Rare resources -> :rolleyes:

Pure upkeep resources are boring, but they work. But if you also want to use them to purchase things, you'll need to create a balance between the two needs. If the upkeep part is dominant, you'll proabably have a surplus that makes the occasional purchase price trivial. Or when's the last time you haven't had enough food/gas for a colony ship/research lab past 2220?

A resource with a single use becomes a cooldown timer. Again, that's not very engaging.

Resources that become useless over the course of the game are just bad design.
 

TrotBot

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The idea that Influence is the resource for external matters, and Unity is the Resource for internal matters is neat, thematically, but I believe that when it comes to Planet Ascensions, it doesn't really work out all that well from a mechanical perspective.

To me, there are two arguments for making Planet Ascension cost Influence:
1.) Planet Ascensions are most relevant for empires with few planets, since every Ascension will benefit a bigger part of your overall empire. An empire that does not wish to expand horizontally currently does not have a lot of use for Influence: They don't want to expand, they don't want to Claim, and it would be nice to have an alternative to spamming dozens of habitats.
2.) A small empire is bound to have a lower amount of overall production, so it seems counter-intuitive and counter-productive to me that they would need to produce their Ascension Resources through jobs, instead of making use of the one Resource (Influence) that isn't heavily tied into the industry. Especially since these empires are also the ones who benefit from running Edicts, which also cost Unity.

Overall, it seems to me that Ascension-heavy empires would work best as their own "archetype": A tall empire that does not spam habitats and instead focuses on improving the actual planets that it has. If Ascensions had a semi-static Influence Cost (X + Y per existing Level of Ascension on the planet), then it could function as the primary way of (not actual, but in effect) "Expansion" for that archetype, while also still allowing wider empires to throw a few levels of Ascension on some key worlds (like Ecus or Research centers) when they have the spare resources.

Maybe I'm missing some obvious problem with this implementation, but I feel like this would lead to a much more interesting implementation than what we have now.
If planetary ascenscion adds influence to its already insanely high unity costs, it should add housing and jobs.
 
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Ryika

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If planetary ascenscion adds influence to its already insanely high unity costs, it should add housing and jobs.
I was thinking more about completely replacing the Unity-cost with an Influence cost. ;)

Not sure what the exact effects should be, but currently, it feels expensive and weak to me.
 
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I was thinking more about completely replacing the Unity-cost with an Influence cost. ;)

Not sure what the exact effects should be, but currently, it feels expensive and weak to me.
No, I love the unity cost :( it means if you're a unity powerhouse you can really outgrow the warmongers if you invest in your planets.