Should Ottoman have a Tributary mechanic?

[theauthor]

A lot of Ottoman expansion into Europe is by making it's neighboring states from gameplay perspective a tributary status and many of it's expansion is because they refuse to pay the tribute.

And many of Ottoman vassal in game such as Crimea, Wallachia, Moldavia and Transylvania seems to be capable to declare war on their own affair which is something you couldn't really do as vassal in EU4 but you can as tributary.

 

[KlinkerFyren]

Hmm. Maybe make it so Muslim/Anatolian Tech nations in general could use it. Seem to remember something about the Mamluks having tributary relations with several Nubian states. Hmm Granted it might lead to problems where the Ottomans Tribute Serbia/the Balkans and literally never invade into Europe because a network of untouchable tributaries would be in the way. It might end up with bizarre situations where the Balkans become some DMZ haven of peace and tranquility.

 

[RMS Oceanic]

If you want to do it, I'd enable it as part of the Ottoman Government

 

[Nostalgium]

Tributary subjects should honestly stay as restricted as they are unless the AI is programmed with new logic for who to make tributaries of, who to conquer, and when to break tributary relations. At the moment, the AI will happily tributary itself into a corner and never expand, making it easy prey for non-Tributary-taking nations nearby. See for example Ava, which often gets eaten by Bengal without doing anything of consequence for the whole game, or Japan, which frequently forms, and then makes tributaries of the remaining Daimyo on the Home Islands instead of consolidating.

Alternatively, all tributary relations should be possible to elevate to vassal status and integrated, for everyone, not just for max reformed EoC. Put it on a say 20-year limit, which then neccessitates having them as a vassal for 10 more. Then you get 10 years for integrating a vassal, 30 for a Tributary, and 50 for a PU, which seems reasonable to me.

 

[YellowPress]

A lot of Ottoman expansion into Europe is by making it's neighboring states from gameplay perspective a tributary status and many of it's expansion is because they refuse to pay the tribute.

And many of Ottoman vassal in game such as Crimea, Wallachia, Moldavia and Transylvania seems to be capable to declare war on their own affair which is something you couldn't really do as vassal in EU4 but you can as tributary.

War reps, transfer trade and max money is how i interpret paying tribute, seeing how many happened post wars
Eu4 doesn't allow condominiums so Moldavia and translyvania can never be accurately represented in game

 

[Bardon29]

A lot of Ottoman expansion into Europe is by making it's neighboring states from gameplay perspective a tributary status and many of it's expansion is because they refuse to pay the tribute.

And many of Ottoman vassal in game such as Crimea, Wallachia, Moldavia and Transylvania seems to be capable to declare war on their own affair which is something you couldn't really do as vassal in EU4 but you can as tributary.

Since crimea will become a tributary state instead of march in 1.34, it would make a lot of sense to give ottoman goverment an ability to establish tributaries.

My only worry is that ottomans might not expand as much by making most of the neighbours a tributary. Some kind of adjustment towards AI ottoman behavior or mechanics would be needed to prevet that.

 

[YellowPress]

Since crimea will become a tributary state instead of march in 1.34, it would make a lot of sense to give ottoman goverment an ability to establish tributaries.

My only worry is that ottomans might not expand as much by making most of the neighbours a tributary. Some kind of adjustment towards AI ottoman behavior or mechanics would be needed to prevet that.

I mean it might be better to have them not expand as much and have more tributaries, seeing how much of the empire was tributaries

 

[st360]

While I'm ok with tributaries for historical realism, I'm NOT ok with the current way tributaries work. Currently, a tributary is more valuable than fully cored same religion same culture land, because tributaries give monarch points.

After reaching the size of a great power, tributaries become vastly better than conquering land, unless you're doing a world conquest. The Ottomans are already DROWNING in monarch points, and taking technologies 5 years ahead of time. They don't need more monarch points.

 

[zincpl]

the crimea change is designed to block their expansion in that direction. If you give ottos tributaries in general, they won't ever make it out of anatolia with the current AI approach.

The might be affected by the next patch though as the AI will focus more on missions . However, it's not clear atm whether it will prefer permanent claims over a tributary. If it does then ottos being able to make tributaries might get them to their historical borders in a relatively natural way.

 

[theauthor]

Since crimea will become a tributary state instead of march in 1.34, it would make a lot of sense to give ottoman goverment an ability to establish tributaries.

My only worry is that ottomans might not expand as much by making most of the neighbours a tributary. Some kind of adjustment towards AI ottoman behavior or mechanics would be needed to prevet that.

Huh so Crimea will be tributary state in the next patch? That should prevent Ottoman expansion into north but hopefully still ensure that Crimea will remain Ottoman sphere of influence.

Tributary wise i think i only see Ming use it, other faction that can install tributarty are much more reluctant to use it.

 

[noldorin]

The Crimean Khanate participated in most of the eastern and western expeditions of the Ottoman Empire. As far as I know, tributary states only pay tribute, we have no control over them.

 

[Nostalgium]

The Crimean Khanate participated in most of the eastern and western expeditions of the Ottoman Empire. As far as I know, tributary states only pay tribute, we have no control over them.

You could interpret both manpower and MIL point tribute as them sending military aid to your armies, which is more appropriate to my understanding of how the Crimeans participated in the Ottoman conflicts. Feel free to correct me if wrong, but they didn't commit their full armies wholesale to Ottoman leadership; rather they were supplementing the Sublime Porte's armies with contigents of cavalry and the likes.

And most crucially, the Ottomans didn't administer their lands or integrate them politically, which is what Vassals more tacitly represent. A more autonomous, but still integrated part of your territory.

 

[YellowPress]

You could interpret both manpower and MIL point tribute as them sending military aid to your armies, which is more appropriate to my understanding of how the Crimeans participated in the Ottoman conflicts. Feel free to correct me if wrong, but they didn't commit their full armies wholesale to Ottoman leadership; rather they were supplementing the Sublime Porte's armies with contigents of cavalry and the likes.

And most crucially, the Ottomans didn't administer their lands or integrate them politically, which is what Vassals more tacitly represent. A more autonomous, but still integrated part of your territory.

Eu4 doesn't represent small warfare well, so polish sponsorship of cossacks vs ottoman sponsorship of tatars can only be shown by crimea occupying random Lithuanian province and viceversa
How much of an army did crimean khans have outside what they sent to the sultan's campaigns, seeing how all the key centres of trade were under ottoman administration. Representing the de centralised nature of ottoman rule over the crimean khanate as a tributary rather than vassal brings into question why anatolia is core ottoman land, neither vassals nor tributaries with how often they revolted, nor is syria a subject in later start dates, nor are many of the kurdish states represented but iraq is a vassal in one start date i think

 

[Elu Thingol]

Well, in theory they should, since they had a established system off tributaries, but since the game cant realy handle those relationships, i think it would lead to some massive problem. (Getting one over Crimea is still a massive improvement).

 

[Bibor]

The tributary mechanic is much closer to how real world vassals worked. Actual conquest and integration was quite rare. But, I doubt the eu4 AI could handle a bunch of global HREs

 

[Republic of Mercury]

The tributary mechanic is much closer to how real world vassals worked. Actual conquest and integration was quite rare. But, I doubt the eu4 AI could handle a bunch of global HREs

I don't think I'm the only person who thinks a bunch of global HREs would be cool though.

Inb4 "That's Crusader Kings"

 

[YellowPress]

I don't think I'm the only person who thinks a bunch of global HREs would be cool though.

Inb4 "That's Crusader Kings"

Its not ck3 where you always attack top tier.

The tributary mechanic is much closer to how real world vassals worked. Actual conquest and integration was quite rare. But, I doubt the eu4 AI could handle a bunch of global HREs

Real world vassals for who? Islamic subjects? Sure, but state centralisation lf Christian kingdoms were definetly the norm for this era with military contingents being sent and taxes paid, not just tribute missions and trade rights

 

[MaXiMuS-54]

Tributaries are next to useless and only purpose they serve is a wart on the map. If anything the whole system needs to be reworked.

 

[YellowPress]

Tributaries are next to useless and only purpose they serve is a wart on the map. If anything the whole system needs to be reworked.

Manpower for steppe nomads amd mana for everyone else?

 

[Mackus]

Generally speaking, A LOT of diplomatic arrangements of the era could be represented as tributaries, Ottoman subjects being among them.

But right now the biggest problem to use the mechanic more is how unreasonably eager the AI is to make tributaries. This screws up places like Japan and China, where stronger party will turn it's weaker neighbours into tributaries... or at least it used to before Paradox made a quick fix by scripting a specific rule to restrict AI from making tributaries with capitals in same superregions.