Should naval dockyards have production effeciancy?

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Secret Master

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but in HoI4 it's possible to build smaller ships much faster than historically, by stacking a heap of NIC on them, so there's hardly a need here (and even for most small designs, IIRC most yards didn't do repeat runs).

This is something I don't quite understand. It was slower to build DDs and whatnot historically than it is in the game, but on the other hand, even with the most minimalist DD construction program in game, it's really hard to reach historical numbers of these smaller ships without making sacrifices that hurt you unacceptably in other areas. (As you know doubt know from tests I've done, the US can't even reach it's historical number of ships or classes of ships, but it's not just the US that's nerfed.)

Where is the disconnect between the game and history in this regard?

A) Historically, naval powers had more NIC than they do in the game.

B) Historically, naval powers couldn't put 100% of their NIC on capital ships or screens because dockyards aren't fungible in real life like they are in the game. This causes the game's construction efficiency on different ship classes to be skewed since all NIC produces all hsip types at basically the same efficiency.

C) Naval production budgets are off in the game. For example, the Yamato's build budget, if I remember correctly, was hidden in the budget for 28 DDs. But in the game it's certainly not the same cost either on the DD or SHBB side.

D) There are no things like corvettes in the game, so DDs end up having to take up that slack but crappy tier 1 DDs aren't cheap enough to fulfill this role while also being much easier to build than historical DDs.

Or am I not seeing something?
 
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This is something I don't quite understand. It was slower to build DDs and whatnot historically than it is in the game, but on the other hand, even with the most minimalist DD construction program in game, it's really hard to reach historical numbers of these smaller ships without making sacrifices that hurt you unacceptably in other areas. (As you know doubt know from tests I've done, the US can't even reach it's historical number of ships or classes of ships, but it's not just the US that's nerfed.)

Where is the disconnect between the game and history in this regard?

A) Historically, naval powers had more NIC than they do in the game.

B) Historically, naval powers couldn't put 100% of their NIC on capital ships or screens because dockyards aren't fungible in real life like they are in the game. This causes the game's construction efficiency on different ship classes to be skewed since all NIC produces all hsip types at basically the same efficiency.

C) Naval production budgets are off in the game. For example, the Yamato's build budget, if I remember correctly, was hidden in the budget for 28 DDs. But in the game it's certainly not the same cost either on the DD or SHBB side.

D) There are no things like corvettes in the game, so DDs end up having to take up that slack but crappy tier 1 DDs aren't cheap enough to fulfill this role while also being much easier to build than historical DDs.

Or am I not seeing something?

I haven't done any tests of this since MtG, but the general impression I get is the same. I think this all makes sense though - the issue isn't the speed of construction, but rather how much net NIC is needed for each ship, relative to how much is available in game (so, for example, even if the UK can put 10 NIC on DDs, and build one a month, give or take (rather than a probably more-historical pace of one NIC on 10 lines producing 10DDs in 10 months).

In terms of your questions, my "off the top of my head" takes (so take with a biiiiig grain of salt!):

A) Generally yes, particularly if we take into account that merchant ships are very, very cheap

B) It's definitely not completely fungible, but it was generally far easier for large dockyards to switch to building screens than the other way around (for yards used to building to naval standards - it's another story entirely for the mercantile yards building corvettes to mainly mercantile standards).

C) I'm slowly but surely putting together a table of ship costs, and am going to give this a going-over at some stage. I've only recently got back into modding (like, this week), so very early days - and this is the kind of thing I'd do while getting back into mixing up ship stuff. Rather than guess, I'd prefer wait until I've got a table of NIC and actual costs all lined up.

D) There's no question that corvettes and even frigates were much cheaper than proper destroyers, or "small destroyers" like the RN's Hunt class - this has a huge impact on the production of Frigates/Destroyer Escorts/Corvettes, as while they can be proxied by tier 1 DDs to a point, tier 1 DDs don't allow heavy ASW loadouts (due to slot restrictions) and are expensive (I think) relative to historic costs.

More broadly, another issue is that war production historically was a mix of new capacity, and repurposed existing civilian capacity. HoI4 is very, very heavily skewed to new capacity relative to repurposed capacity (if GDP was proxied by factories, many countries quadruple their GDP in the period, whereas the US (the nation with the strongest growth) closer to doubled, and most other nations didn't do better than add 50% or so total capacity. I totally get why the devs went with a growth model (more fun building stuff up), but it adds significant lags in terms of turning on productive capacity relative to historical patterns of production - as best I understand them, off the top of my head.

Another issue that may be the case is that in wartime plant is used far more intensively (more shifts, sometimes working non-stop) - so while 'war economy' laws push towards faster production of new MIC/NIC/etc; what they tended to do historically was more use the existing MIC/NIC more intensively.

Being a boring historical plausibilityist, one of the things I'm thinking about mod-wise, is setting things up to be far, far more heavily skewed towards retasking of economic capacity rather than building it fresh, but that's a huge task, and well down my list of things I'm keen to look into.
 
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Hoi Neuling

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You get Production Efficency with the depressed or cocentrated Industry-Tech, belongs what you choose.

But where I give you right: The Tools-Part should give the + % there too for Repairs, Refits and Standard-Production too like for the War-Industry. That get missing since Version 1.0.0 up to the Version we have now.
 
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I don't know but i would like some sort of mechanic that supports the idea of dockyards centers. This With the intent of having 10 dockyards in one state is better then having 1 dockyards in 10 states.
 
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Secret Master

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Another issue that may be the case is that in wartime plant is used far more intensively (more shifts, sometimes working non-stop) - so while 'war economy' laws push towards faster production of new MIC/NIC/etc; what they tended to do historically was more use the existing MIC/NIC more intensively.

I had a long debate with someone I play MP with (who also works on our mod) about how the game depicts the building of MIC rather than the conversion of CIC to MIC or the additional shifts at existing factories. (This was two years ago, I think.) I was arguing that it would be neat in our mod to make it so that we don't produce a lot of new factories so much as gear the economy more for war as time goes on. Imagine a game as Britain where you don't keep existing CIC and build new MIC, but instead start with a lot more CIC and have to convert it over (or not, if you can't afford the economic damage of doing so).

He pointed out a number of things that made me reconsider my position.

1) HOI4 is a game built upon the foundation of HOI3. For all the complaints and changes and upgrades and nostalgia and a whole list of other words to describe the situation, there are fundamental similarities between the two in terms of structure. Both games, like many other Paradox titles, have a "more is better" structure. In Stellaris, more districts are better (if you have POPs to work them). In CK3, more and upgraded buildings and holdings are better. In Vic2, practically the entire economy is built around "more fatories = good." (Hell, good players of Vic2 want colonial empires simply to have more resources to feed those factories and more people to buy those goods. Who gives a damn about prestige or map painting?) And HOI3 is built upon building more factories. It's an old term, but how many of us remember "IC-whoring" as a strategy? How many of us worshiped at the altar of construction practicals? So, in terms of how the game is built, it's sort of baked in to the design. (As you rightly point out.) Changing it would be like creating an entirely new game.

2) The abstraction of "more MIC built" as opposed to "more efficiency from MIC already present" has some design advantages. Not that efficiency isn't a good thing (we see that all over Paradox games as well), but in terms of human beings understanding the game's economy, I think more MIC being built is easier for a lot of players to grasp. To give a recent example: when people were taking about whether the Soviet tree was a nerf, one of the metrics a lot of players immediately used to prove their points was factory count. It's simple and easy to see. In fact, one of the reasons I think a lot of people were initially infuriated with the tree was because they only look at factory counts. It was weeks before people realized I was on to something with my "abuse 0% consumer goods and 130 production efficiency cap" strategy as the Soviets. Even if factory count is the same, a production cap of 130% is a huge boost compared to the same number of factories without that advantage. But it's not as visible. We see the same thing with MAA cap in CK3, IND score in Vic2, and POPs/districts in Stellaris.

3) The mechanic of building more MIC, but MIC being limited by slots, is perhaps the closest the HOI series will get to managing labor and industry (for reasons that are obvious). If you were modeling the "slack" some economies had in the late 1930s that would enable more military production in the 1940s once the war commenced, this is a way of doing that without having POPs or food or unpleasantness.
 
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I don't know but i would like some sort of mechanic that supports the idea of dockyards centers. This With the intent of having 10 dockyards in one state is better then having 1 dockyards in 10 states.

There I would better use some Mod-Ideas (like in the Ultra-Historical Mod which have linked very good small and Medium Mods in one Big Mod). And there is that you can upgrade the Dry-Docks a little more for bigger Ships (like f. e. the H-Battleships, Aircraft-Carriers and normal advanced Battleships).

What the Dockyards belongs, you have and had realistic not much. If you have 6 or 8 it´s much. Some are smaller, some bigger, belongs what Types of Ships the Nation have. In historical Reports, Books for Navys and no Nation has 10 Dry-Docks in an Harbor and the 6 to 8 seperated. The Reason is easy: "Look at Pearl Harbor and the famous Japanese attack, where excatly an desaster happend. And if you have 10 or more Dockyards in a Row, then you can see what happens in the Game.

The AI or an other Player concentrate on this cumulative Dockyards, destroys your Navy and have then an easy Game with Sea-Invasions. To avoid that, all nations build Dockyards in seperate Harbours if possible and upgraded existing ones with dispressed Industry (like Germany did). Others which couldn´t despressed enough get an heavy Defense, but that heavy Defense dosen´t help against rotation Bombing Raids.

Short said: I build up seperate Dockyards if nessecarry or let do it from the Focus Tree (like the German Navy-Focus-Tree) for me.

I don´t quote the fully Answers from the Moderator Secret Master here. The Devs do their best to give us an very cool Game with every new Version and DLC. And with every new Version / DLC you see that they work hard on the Game.

With 1.06 "Ironclad" incl. DLC "Man the Guns", 1.09 "Husky" incl. DLC "La Ressistance" and 1.11 "Barbarossa" incl. DLC "No Step Back" the biggest Steps in the Game did done.

With 1.03 "Torch" incl. DLC "Togehter for Victory", 1.04 "Oak" incl. DLC "Death or Dishonor", 1.05 "Cornflakes" incl. DLC "Waking the Tiger" and 1.10 "Collie" incl. DLC "Battle for the Bosperus" medium Steps in the Game get done.

With 1.07 "Hydra" as well 1.08 "Fork" the Devs put the Game on the new 64-Bit Systems-Level, which was a late must have. The remaining older 32-Bit-must have Refits in R & D etc. get done with 1.11 "Barbarossa" incl. DLC "No Step Back" as well as more new Versions / DLC.

We will see more cool Refits, Reworks and Upgrades in the next Versions. And Hoi 4 have many medium as well as big Jobsites left. The R & D-Part in Industry, Specials, an Refit in Navy and Airforce f. e.

I play with Mods which make an historical Industry (Dockyards, Military, Civilian etc.), Navy, Army and Airforce for all Countrys. That makes Hoi 4 much more realistic and more Fun. There you have to think where Synth. Raffs and everything else get build up, what capacitys you have for build up / Refit your Airforce, Army, Navy and so on.
 
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I was arguing that it would be neat in our mod to make it so that we don't produce a lot of new factories so much as gear the economy more for war as time goes on. Imagine a game as Britain where you don't keep existing CIC and build new MIC, but instead start with a lot more CIC and have to convert it over (or not, if you can't afford the economic damage of doing so).

He pointed out a number of things that made me reconsider my position.

Aye, they're all very sensible points, and the reason why it's down my list and a very big task :) I still aspire to it, but I've got a lot of naval stuff I want to do that comes first - the naval stuff being both of higher interest, and I've got far more data on it, whereas for the economic side of things I need to put together a whole bunch of economic and industry data for every nation during the time period. I definitely wouldn't suggest it outside of a mod either - gamers are hardwired to the "more is better" side of things, and I think taking a more historically plausible approach to economy design, outside of the Vicky series, would be hard-going for a large proportion of the audience.
 
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and I've got far more data on it, whereas for the economic side of things I need to put together a whole bunch of economic and industry data for every nation during the time period. I definitely wouldn't suggest it outside of a mod either - gamers are hardwired to the "more is better" side of things, and I think taking a more historically plausible approach to economy design, outside of the Vicky series, would be hard-going for a large proportion of the audience.

The approach you are talking is exactly what we are doing in my mod (Ultra Historical mod). Don't hesitate to contact me if you are interrested :)
 
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The approach you are talking is exactly what we are doing in my mod (Ultra Historical mod). Don't hesitate to contact me if you are interrested :)

Cheers Vorondil :) I'm only very recently back into modding (literally the last week) so am yet to acquaint myself with the current range of active mods - will be sure to give yours a look (I won't use anything without permission of course) and get in touch as appropriate - best of luck with it all :)
 
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Naval production is WAY to slow in game anyways. You are basically restricted to your starting fleet (if you have one). Building a battleship (with max 5 dockyards) takes 2-3 years(!), same with carriers. So either you start with a good fleet or you don't.

Naval balancing in game is horrendous anyways. As far as I understand history, there was never a reason to not give a ship a cannon if it would fit on the hull. So, to fix the naval matter, I would increase naval output by factor 2, but make hulls(!) 50% more expensive at the same time. That would remove the "minimalist" matter AND allow realistic ship building speed.

As for naval production efficiency, I don't see the point. In contrast to tank/plane production battleships were seldom streamlined.
The Royal Navy slowed down battleship production in the interwar period even though they had enough dockyards because their artillery factories couldn't produce enough cannons, so there were literally many reasons "not to give a ship a cannon" lol. If anything, the weaponry on ships should be built in the Military Factory interface and just the hulls built in dockyards. That would be more realistic. The Bofors AA guns on Allied ships were made in the same factories as AA guns used for land units, for example, as was much of the secondary weaponry.
 
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Designing am effective warship is incredibly complex. In terms of cannon, a designer needs to take into account the distribution of weights in the ship (most of the heavy weight of main armament is relatively high in the ship - too much of that and a ship will capsize easily even with limited battle damage/flooding), the shock on the ship's structure of the main armament firing, and the trim of the vessel (is the bow or stern lower in the water?) There's an awful lot more to it than just "is there enough space in the hull to plonk in another cannon). That being said, during the time period in question, there generally wasn't a huge amount of "spare" space in warships in any event.

The ship designer in HOI4 generally gives you simplistic trade-offs like more firepower=less speed=more production cost. IRL, the biggest guns were not always the most effective. The Royal Navy decided against 16in guns for its interwar battleships because they considered them to have less damage output potential than smaller guns. While one hit from a larger gun may pierce through the thickest armour, smaller guns fire faster and are more likely to score hits.

The whole armour vs. piercing thing is also problematic. A lot of things can go wrong on a ship without its hull being pierced. Smaller shells can still cause an explosion on the bridge or in other vital control areas and put a ship completely out of action. Not every ship went down like the Hood -- many were scuttled because of small shells hitting vital bits that weren't protected by armour.

The Graf Spee, for example, was defeated by warships that she outgunned. Among other things, her desalination plant had been hit, which meant the surviving crew would run out of drinking water. Lots of small guns probably beat a handful of big guns in most cases!
 
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The whole armour vs. piercing thing is also problematic. A lot of things can go wrong on a ship without its hull being pierced. Smaller shells can still cause an explosion on the bridge or in other vital control areas and put a ship completely out of action. Not every ship went down like the Hood -- many were scuttled because of small shells hitting vital bits that weren't protected by armour.
Introducing the most powerful surface vessels ever built.
 
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The ship designer in HOI4 generally gives you simplistic trade-offs like more firepower=less speed=more production cost. IRL, the biggest guns were not always the most effective. The Royal Navy decided against 16in guns for its interwar battleships because they considered them to have less damage output potential than smaller guns. While one hit from a larger gun may pierce through the thickest armour, smaller guns fire faster and are more likely to score hits.

All thoughts below based on my reading and I'm only as good as my sources, and in the spirit of a friendly discussion on warships :)

The RN only commissioned two new battleships in the interwar period, and they both had 16in guns as their main armament :p I'm quite sure you're well aware of this, though, and are referring to the KGVs (designed and construction started in the interwar) :) Based on Raven and Roberts' British Battleships of World War Two, the British decided in about Sep 1935 to go with three triple 15in turrets, acknowledging they provided less gunpowder than three triple 16in turrets, but that the treaty limitations on battleship weight meant a 16in-gunned ship would be under-protected. Then the naval treaties came along, and in the preliminary negotiations, the British decided to offer a 14in main calibre limit - while the escalator clause was built into the treaty, it was necessary to order the guns and start work on designing the mountings immediately. Because delay was not acceptable, the KGVs were built with 14in main armament, but their successors, the Lions, were designed with three triple 16in turrets as their main armament (which, on 40,000 tons allowed for a more balanced design, at least in the mind of British designers*).

It's also worth bearing in mind that the 14in Mk VII in the KGVs didn't have a particularly fast rate of fire for a capital ship gun, of about 2 rounds per minute (similar to the Queen Elizabeths, or the US 16in-gunned BBs).

That said, the broader point you make about not necessarily going with the bigger gun, and that rate of fire mattered, very much was a point of discussion in comparisons between 8in and 6in-gunned cruiser designs of the period.

* Which, for what it's worth, I agree with, but my cred here is marginal at best!

The Graf Spee, for example, was defeated by warships that she outgunned. Among other things, her desalination plant had been hit, which meant the surviving crew would run out of drinking water. Lots of small guns probably beat a handful of big guns in most cases!

Graf Spee is a tricky one, as her fighting ability in the short-term really wasn't impaired by the battle at all (whereas Exeter was in a much rougher shape after the engagement) - the loss of the desalination plant was the critical matter, but had the Battle of the River Plate been fought in the North Sea and Graf Spree withdrew to Wilhelmshaven, then it would have been a far less flattering result for the RN. A better example might be the first naval battle of Guadalcanal, when the 8in and smaller-gunned cruisers mauled Hiei at close range?

The whole armour vs. piercing thing is also problematic. A lot of things can go wrong on a ship without its hull being pierced. Smaller shells can still cause an explosion on the bridge or in other vital control areas and put a ship completely out of action. Not every ship went down like the Hood -- many were scuttled because of small shells hitting vital bits that weren't protected by armour.

Bear in mind that critical hits are still possible even if the armour isn't pierced - it's just that piercing the armour makes it more likely that criticals happen. While I haven't crunched the numbers, the general approach in-game seems fairly sound. The most important parts of the ship were protected by armour for a reason, so being able to pierce armour leading to a greater chance of criticals feels to me like it makes sense (although I could be wrong).

Most (all?) major warships of WW2 had alternative control and conning positions, so while a bridge hit would cause issues, it wouldn't stop the crew being able to fight the ship (unless for whatever reason the alternative control/conning positions weren't crewed, but my understanding is that was standard practice for action stations). From memory (and I can look this up - but I'm going from memory, so there's a chance I'm wrong) British, US or both (I can't remember which off the top of my head) could in an emergency control the ship from inside one of their turrets, if both "outside-armour" positions were disabled. Other than the rudder (as Bismarck found out), most critical systems had at least some armour, and often quite a bit.

However, by taking out the director control towers, radar and so on, it was definitely possible to substantially diminish the fighting capacity of a warship of the era, even if it wasn't possible (unless the rudder/steering gear was hit) disable it entirely.
 
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