Should Nationalist China be a major power?

[Ted52]

As we can tell from the newest Dev Diary, China is, as in HoI3, considered not a major power and will thus not get their own national focus tree.

Here is the point though: China was quite strong and is of course the main counter to Japan in the early game. It is a "I will slow you while you run over me" counter, but still a counter.

In discussions of the major powers of WW2, China is always the unloved No.8, where some people say they were a major and some people disagree.


What do you think? Should Nat. China with its influence (or not-influence, looking at you, Mao) on other Chinese states and its unlimited manpower be considered a major? Or is it a minor due to its corruption levels and technical inferiority to both Japan and (if ahistorical things happen) the Soviets?


Also, what role should the Chinese civil war play? What about the colonial powers on the coast of China?

Wait. I smell a China DLC...

 

[gregor_mendel]

Johan said that goal achievement would be 1/3rd of that during peacetime. Considering that China will likely get thrown into war by '37.. Seems a bit unnecessary. Plus the aforementioned technical deficiencies and generally stagnant situation in the East.

 

[Ted52]

Yeah, of course. But Japan gets ALSO thrown into war by 37, so this point is kind of invalid, isnt it?

This is not even the point of the thread though

 

[DEY123]

I don't think they should be a major power. All of the powers listed are at the front of power in terms of fielding large armies, capable of building strong navies, and generally influencing others around the globe. I don't think any area in africa was worried that the Chinese where going to set up a colony unlike how the others exerted influence outside of their sphere.

 

[Spartanlemur]

Sorry if I've missed something, but do they actually get "thrown into war" in HoI4 in 1937? I was under the impression that such things weren't railroaded now.

 

[Denkt]

Sorry if I've missed something, but do they actually get "thrown into war" in HoI4 in 1937? I was under the impression that such things weren't railroaded now.

You are correct

 

[Gamer_1745]

China was almost a failed state at the time. It effectively had multiple ongoing civil wars. There was massive cultural & economic change. I think it was more of a major region with national state aspirations. I am making a difference between a major State (government) and a major Country (people & region). Again my thinking China was not a major State, it was a major Country.

 

[尾张猫]

If you want to restore history

Nationalist China Almost no heavy industry.China has been able to delay Japan for eight years, is Japan's own reasons

China at that time, with a large front and a large number of soldiers dragging Japan

I do not think at the time that China is a country strong enough.

We only use rifle to attack Japanese troops. But the huge number of accidents sustain a disadvantage

Although sacrifice a lot, if not victory in the US Pacific War, the Japanese army in China is still dominant

 

[Ted52]

China was almost a failed state at the time. It effectively had multiple ongoing civil wars. There was massive cultural & economic change. I think it was more of a major region with national state aspirations. I am making a difference between a major State (government) and a major Country (people & region). Again my thinking China was not a major State, it was a major Country.

This is exactly what I would agree with.

 

[Tass248]

If you want to restore history

Nationalist China Almost no heavy industry.China has been able to delay Japan for eight years, is Japan's own reasons

China at that time, with a large front and a large number of soldiers dragging Japan

I do not think at the time that China is a country strong enough.

We only use rifle to attack Japanese troops. But the huge number of accidents sustain a disadvantage

Although sacrifice a lot, if not victory in the US Pacific War, the Japanese army in China is still dominant

True, but you could say that the soviet union would have ended much the same way if not for the famed/infamous, general winter. And teh fact that Germany was dipping into too many plates at the time. Had it been the sole focus of the Axis we'd be asking if the Union was a major power or not right now...

 

[Secret Master]

I hate to be picky, but wouldn't it be more fun to actually make China a major power co-equal with the likes of the USA and Soviets thought winning the war rather than arbitrary assignment? Hasn't that always been the allure of playing the Chinese (no matter what faction)? To turn the war around earlier, to defeat the Japanese hands down, and annex/puppet enough "stuff" to become a hegemonic power in Asia? All the while fighting at the historical disadvantages she found herself facing in the period?

And rather than just assign China major power status, I would think that China's rather unique situation in the 30s would be screaming for its own special set up and mechanics, rather than just making China another boring major power.

Rather than assign a bunch of generic major power mechanics to China, I'd rather them take the time to get China "right," both advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Paglia]

I hate to be picky, but wouldn't it be more fun to actually make China a major power co-equal with the likes of the USA and Soviets thought winning the war rather than arbitrary assignment? Hasn't that always been the allure of playing the Chinese (no matter what faction)? To turn the war around earlier, to defeat the Japanese hands down, and annex/puppet enough "stuff" to become a hegemonic power in Asia? All the while fighting at the historical disadvantages she found herself facing in the period?

And rather than just assign China major power status, I would think that China's rather unique situation in the 30s would be screaming for its own special set up and mechanics, rather than just making China another boring major power.

Rather than assign a bunch of generic major power mechanics to China, I'd rather them take the time to get China "right," both advantages and disadvantages.

Would be awesome

 

[LeeDub]

China is a fantastic country to play in HoI, but I think the announced seven powers are quite ok. Patches/DLC are a great way to add more national focuses to other countries, and China will most likely be first in line.

 

[Strompeta]

I think China must be the 8º major. They were inmersed in a long civil war, and they lost so much industry when Japan annexed Manchuria.
But it is supposed that China in a few years with Jiang Jieshi advanced too much.

Dont forget the fact that Germany was supporting Nat. China with weapons and training (Von Falkenhausen i.e) till 1937 cause Germany saw Nat.China as a possible major in Asia.

 

[PanH]

True, but you could say that the soviet union would have ended much the same way if not for the famed/infamous, general winter. And teh fact that Germany was dipping into too many plates at the time. Had it been the sole focus of the Axis we'd be asking if the Union was a major power or not right now...

Hm, no ?
Being a major power has nothing to do with being defeated by one. France is a MP, and was defeated by Germany. Italy, Germany and Japan are major powers too and they were defeated. It has nothing to do with actual victory or not.
Plus, even without considering a german victory (which I find doubtful, and winter isn't the only factor there), the USSR was still nothing like China. It had important heavy industry (second to the USA), an important army, which was technologically advanced, aviation, navy, etc.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Yeah, I was under the impression that China had less industry then European minors like Belgium, or even Denmark.

 

[Ted52]

Yep, I have seen many different opinions on this now, and around the spectrum I would expect.

Of course, placing China on the power level of the US, the USSR or the German Reich would be ridicolous, but they felt so weak in HoI3, because their problems were not historically modelled, but somehow inserted into the resources they had. I played them once and tried a second time, after which I could not be bothered with them anymore.

 

[AmpsterMan]

I wonder, if the political status of 1936 HoI were converted to Victoria 2, which nation would be the 8th Great Power? I can find no other country BUT China at the time (assuming China is westernized with a lot of Nationalist and Communist Rebels). Still, minor or not, as long as the East Asian front gets some love I'm fine. Beating China/Japan as Japan/China isn't really that tough once you get the hang of and there isn't much to be done thereafter.

 

[Ted52]

Well, we got the Belgium, Turkey, the Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Nat. China and Australia. Those are the six I could imagine to be number 8 in Vicky2. Depends on their prestige probably ;P

 

[Secret Master]

Of course, placing China on the power level of the US, the USSR or the German Reich would be ridicolous, but they felt so weak in HoI3, because their problems were not historically modelled, but somehow inserted into the resources they had. I played them once and tried a second time, after which I could not be bothered with them anymore.

Then you should have played them again. Annexing Japan, the Soviets, French Indochina (since the Japanese hold it), Korea (again, Japanese held), Mongolia, Tanna Tuva, and the other Chinese minors was possible on normal difficulty within the time frame of the game. I suppose I could have gone further, but I was in the Allies and couldn't attack the British legally anymore, and it seemed silly trying to invade Afghanistan and Persia once I annexed the Caucuses.

It wasn't too difficult to defeat the Japanese, or even stonewall them to the point where they made absolutely no gains. Then the clock was just ticking until you got enough forces in place to waltz into Manchuria and Korea. Thanks to tech stealing, you could even begin building enough of a navy to get across to Japan proper (or drop PARA on ports to open a path for transports).

Dealing with Soviets is a simple matter once you initiate the war after Germany falls. The Brits and Americans grind themselves into oblivion in Europe while you send your MTN across Siberia (slowly, since it does take time). Then you sandwich the Soviets between the two of you. No nukes necessary. And what are the Soviets going to do, exactly? Out manpower you? Of course not, because you stole agriculture or researched it (you did, right? I mean, getting good agriculture should be China 101). Are they going to out tech you? Who cares? Even China can specialize enough to get good INF techs to boost 100 MTN divisions so they can march from Beijing to Moscow, and that assumes you don't steal nice techs. And once China grabs all the relevant strategic effects (which will happen after Japan is annexed), her research speed increases astronomically anyway.

The lack of IC is somewhat of a problem, but once you grab all of the Chinese minors and Japan, you should have plenty of IC plus strategic effects to boost production. That aluminum can be used to build TRA and STR and INT and TAC to support operations anywhere in the world. The good news is that you can also research or steal industry techs to get up to par with the big boys.

China has so much untapped potential in HOI3 just waiting for the player to come along and unlock it. The irony is that if you are prepared for it, the war with Japan can be a good thing, thanks to laws and having cores on a ton of things Japan currently owns.