Should Mormon be a nation designer religion?

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Cymsdale

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I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off. -- Emo Phillips
 
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Frozen Yakman

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Not accepting the Nicean Creed is not grounds for being not Christian. The Council of Nicea was not an elected body with real power to decide matters of faith. The Christ revering Gnostics were as Christian after the Council as they were before. Believing in Christ as a prophet is the minimally sufficient grounds for one religion to be considered a Christian. Mormons are Christian.
 
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neondt

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Not accepting the Nicean Creed is not grounds for being not Christian. The Council of Nicea was not an elected body with real power to decide matters of faith. The Christ revering Gnostics were as Christian after the Council as they were before. Believing in Christ as a prophet is the minimally sufficient grounds for one religion to be considered a Christian. Mormons are Christian.

But then Muslims are Christian. Surely the minimally sufficient grounds would be belief in Christ as divine rather than merely prophetic. This would include everyone from Cathars to Mormons and Anglicans, but not Muslims or Messianic Jews.

edit: Apparently some Messianic Jews actually do believe not only in the divinity of Christ but also in a trinitarian theology. So I guess by my definition the ones that believe that are also Christians.
 
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Grand Historian

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I know of absolutely no person ever that considers mormonism under the umbrella of protestantism. Mormonism is a separate and distinct branch of Christianity.

Saying Mormonism is a branch of Christianity is pushing it at best; most Chalcedonian Christians don't even consider Mormons to be Christians because their Theology is more in line with Gnosticism/Arianism than Christianity, especially considering they don't even believe Christ is God and that they themselves can be elevated to Godhood, and both of those fly directly in the face of basic Christian theology.
 
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Xaster

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Not accepting the Nicean Creed is not grounds for being not Christian. The Council of Nicea was not an elected body with real power to decide matters of faith. The Christ revering Gnostics were as Christian after the Council as they were before.

Well, of course the council was an elected body with real power to decide matters of faith. Unless, it wouldn't be a council. But, as stated before, the Council of Nicea was simply not the moment when trinity was explained or discussed. That not everyone accepted the decisions of Councils is another matter, in this you're right, but I don't think that this means the Councils had not real power more than saying that stealing means that laws against stealing haven't got real power :)

Believing in Christ as a prophet is the minimally sufficient grounds for one religion to be considered a Christian. Mormons are Christian.
Ok, no, that is really wrong. Christianity revolves around that fact that Christ is not only a prophet.
 

yerm

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The argument stems from their addition of a holy book, which in some places (eg east coast USA) causes them to be lumped in as Christian about as much as Christianity is part of Judaism, or Islam part of Christianity. This is more an internal view of Christians towards them; every Mormon I have ever met or read about on the matter calls themselves Christian and most atheists do as well.

The most typical view I found back when I was more into studying things like this and asking questions (10+ years ago) is that if you believe you're Christian and claim you are a Christian, that's that, Romans 10 style - doesn't mean you get into heaven, or are right, or any of that, it's just the criteria to be a "Christian" is all. Even back, way back, you had heresies that disputed or differed on the divinity of Christ, and the ancient church considered them Christians, even if damnable heretic ones.

Christianity simply revolves around a belief with Christ at its center. Requirements like the death and resurrection which St Paul requires, or adherence to scripture which reformers require, or the validity of church councils, or the authority of different apostles or non-Jesus individuals, or the relationship to Judaism, Islam, etc. That all can differ. At its base, if you take someone that believes themselves to be Christian, adheres to a religion which is centered around Christ (whatever their belief of him), and says they are Christian - the burden to define and disprove this person's claim to being a Christian necessarily falls on the person disputing it, and I have yet to see that here.
 
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Mikalos

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Joseph Smith was called a Prophet dumb dumb dumb dumb...
No, they are not. They do not believe in Holy Trinity dogma, which makes them non christians. Or, at vey least, should make them non-christians in game terms, since chiristians of all denomination do not consider them as such.
man theres a lot of christian branches you dont know much about.

Trinitarianism is hardly the only facet of the religion
Well, the question of trinity is not so easy, and surely it would be incorrect to say that it was not present before IV century councils, as it would be incorrect the opposite. It was during this timeframe that it was discussed and ratified (more precisely, after the council of Costantinople).
Anyway, the equation "Don't believe in the Trinity= Is not a Christian" is generally correct, at least as long as we have a satisfying definition of trinity.
For the Mormons, I think they should be considered Christians, maybe christians with a lot of bizarre ideas, but that could be said of almost every modern denomination.
its only correct if you believe one branch of something is ONE TRUE BELIEF and everything else is just false
 
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Blijert

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Off topic:

Seriously, no other forum has ever taught more about religion than those of eu4 and ck2. I'm starting to suspect Johan is either the Pope, the Caliph, or both......

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spinoza013

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Off topic:

Seriously, no other forum has ever taught more about religion than those of eu4 and ck2. I'm starting to suspect Johan is either the Pope, the Caliph, or both......

Join the Paradox church, because life is one big paradox

He is Balor the one eyed King of the Fomorians
 
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But then Muslims are Christian. Surely the minimally sufficient grounds would be belief in Christ as divine rather than merely prophetic. This would include everyone from Cathars to Mormons and Anglicans, but not Muslims or Messianic Jews.

edit: Apparently some Messianic Jews actually do believe not only in the divinity of Christ but also in a trinitarian theology. So I guess by my definition the ones that believe that are also Christians.

I see no problem with lumping Islam as a branch of Christianity nor with labeling Christianity as a branch of Judaism.
 
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Frozen Yakman

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Well, of course the council was an elected body with real power to decide matters of faith. Unless, it wouldn't be a council. But, as stated before, the Council of Nicea was simply not the moment when trinity was explained or discussed. That not everyone accepted the decisions of Councils is another matter, in this you're right, but I don't think that this means the Councils had not real power more than saying that stealing means that laws against stealing haven't got real power :)


Ok, no, that is really wrong. Christianity revolves around that fact that Christ is not only a prophet.

The Council was held on the decision of the Emperor Constantine. Last I checked Constantine wasn't an elected by the people of the Roman Empire much less by all Christians.
 

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man theres a lot of christian branches you dont know much about.

Trinitarianism is hardly the only facet of the religion

its only correct if you believe one branch of something is ONE TRUE BELIEF and everything else is just false


Where did you get the first quote, it was censored hours ago, with a good reason.
 

SignedName

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The Council was held on the decision of the Emperor Constantine. Last I checked Constantine wasn't an elected by the people of the Roman Empire much less by all Christians.
Pope wasn't elected by all of Christendom either, yet half of Christendom thinks he is literally God's representative on earth. That said, non-Nicene Chrisitans were still Christians. We don't call the Arians non-Christians even though they thought Jesus was subordinate to God the Father.
 
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Cymsdale

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I see no problem with lumping Islam as a branch of Christianity nor with labeling Christianity as a branch of Judaism.
I see a big problem with it. It makes all those terms meaningless and intentionally confuses the distinctions. If you want to say they are all part of a larger set, we already have a term for that: Abrahamic Religions.
 

yerm

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Where did you get the first quote, it was censored hours ago, with a good reason.

Gonna go WAY out on a limb here and guess he got it from you, and it sat in his post reply box long after your comment was edited/removed?

In any case, the difference between calling Mormons Christians, Muslims Christians, or Christians Jews, is that the Mormons call themselves Christians and identify as such, while few Christians call themselves Jews (religiously at least) and few to no Muslims call themselves Christians. Mormons are Christian because they say they are, believe what they say, and Christ is at the core of this religion which they say and believe to be a Christian one. Jews and Muslims claim to be from the same religious group (Abrahamic) absolutely true, but not Christians, the way Mormons do.



Meanwhile, I will wait patiently for my Thetan-themed Sunset Invasion DLC for EU4.
 
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cahtush

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I guess there could be an event for CNs that converts a remote province to a heretical religion to represent a religious minority doing what the mormons did.

The Amish Merchant republic Byzantine Empire which just converted Mecca from Scientology to Amishism
While Live and Learn plays.
 

Xaster

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The argument stems from their addition of a holy book, which in some places (eg east coast USA) causes them to be lumped in as Christian about as much as Christianity is part of Judaism, or Islam part of Christianity. This is more an internal view of Christians towards them; every Mormon I have ever met or read about on the matter calls themselves Christian and most atheists do as well.

The most typical view I found back when I was more into studying things like this and asking questions (10+ years ago) is that if you believe you're Christian and claim you are a Christian, that's that, Romans 10 style - doesn't mean you get into heaven, or are right, or any of that, it's just the criteria to be a "Christian" is all. Even back, way back, you had heresies that disputed or differed on the divinity of Christ, and the ancient church considered them Christians, even if damnable heretic ones.

Christianity simply revolves around a belief with Christ at its center. Requirements like the death and resurrection which St Paul requires, or adherence to scripture which reformers require, or the validity of church councils, or the authority of different apostles or non-Jesus individuals, or the relationship to Judaism, Islam, etc. That all can differ. At its base, if you take someone that believes themselves to be Christian, adheres to a religion which is centered around Christ (whatever their belief of him), and says they are Christian - the burden to define and disprove this person's claim to being a Christian necessarily falls on the person disputing it, and I have yet to see that here.

That's a really interesting position, and I'm almost in accord with you. But, to better understand, is not going a bit too far on the "broader" side? The term Christian have to have some connotations on wich anyone can agree. Or we should end up having no definition at all.

its only correct if you believe one branch of something is ONE TRUE BELIEF and everything else is just false
Well no, It's correct if you search a definition of something and than, sticking with the definition try to see what enters it more narrowly and what more broadly.
That's why I say genrally correct: beacuse, generally, It's correct. And I said "generally" because It's not "always".

mh... I hope I have made myself clearer :confused:

The Council was held on the decision of the Emperor Constantine. Last I checked Constantine wasn't an elected by the people of the Roman Empire much less by all Christians.
Yes, It was called by the emperor, and in It a large group of theologians discussed matters of faith, excactly what they had always done. The fact that it was not elected has nothing to do with his real power, unless we're talking about Monty Python. :D
Anyway, I don't even know why this discussion started!
 

zeredek

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