Should Ireland be a british dominion?

[Ironside112]

Ireland claimed that the Statuteof Westminster merely recognised the position it had already achieved under the Anglo- Irish treaty of 1922.

On the international stage, it mattered little what Ireland thought unfortunately as it was Britain who had the actual power behind it -the SoW provided, legally and internationally, Irish dominion-ship and independence. Whilst they were a unique dominion to say the least, they were still a dominion nonetheless, so in regards to gameplay they could absolutely function as one until 1937, given they get some National Spirits that can help reflect this.

 

[Znail]

On the international stage, it mattered little what Ireland thought unfortunately as it was Britain who had the actual power behind it -the SoW provided, legally and internationally, Irish dominion-ship and independence. Whilst they were a unique dominion to say the least, they were still a dominion nonetheless, so in regards to gameplay they could absolutely function as one until 1937, given they get some National Spirits that can help reflect this.

Are you also going to tell US to stop celebrating that day 4 july in 1776 and instead celebrate 4 september 1783 as that is when the Brittish sign on it. And do you think it would accurately simulate history to have US be a subject to the British until then?

 

[Ironside112]

Are you also going to tell US to stop celebrating that day 4 july in 1776 and instead celebrate 4 september 1783 as that is when the Brittish sign on it. And do you think it would accurately simulate history to have US be a subject to the British until then?

uh, what? I'm not talking about the US because we're talking about Ireland not the US. I can see what you're getting at but they're completely different situations other than the fact they fought Britain for independence - the similarities stop there. in regards to Ireland they were still influenced by Britain as a dominion is all my point is so they should be displayed with this influence, with the relatively accurate method in game of the dominion autonomy tier. bringing the US into this like some 'gotcha!' doesn't work when they're completely different events and situations dude.

 

[Znail]

uh, what? I'm not talking about the US because we're talking about Ireland not the US. I can see what you're getting at but they're completely different situations other than the fact they fought Britain for independence - the similarities stop there. in regards to Ireland they were still influenced by Britain as a dominion is all my point is so they should be displayed with this influence, with the relatively accurate method in game of the dominion autonomy tier. bringing the US into this like some 'gotcha!' doesn't work when they're completely different events and situations dude.

The situations were not that diffrent. The main diffrence is that the process went a bit faster with Ireland. The point is that Ireland considered themself free after 1922 and while UK could issue orders or directives so would they most likely been ignored. You should also realise that their constitution didn't just suddenly materialise 1937 as it takes some time to write and finalise such a thing, so they would have been busy writing it when the game starts 1936.

 

[Ironside112]

The situations were not that diffrent. The main diffrence is that the process went a bit faster with Ireland. The point is that Ireland considered themself free after 1922 and while UK could issue orders or directives so would they most likely been ignored. You should also realise that their constitution didn't just suddenly materialise 1937 as it takes some time to write and finalise such a thing, so they would have been busy writing it when the game starts 1936.

I'm not going to get into the discussion of how similar they were because they're completely different events and I can't be bothered right now. the constitution doesn't begin being written in 1936 though? drafts were ofc, but you can't pass a draft can you? it was finalised in the latter half of 1937 and ratified in December.

your point on them recognising their independence is a bit wrong, considering both the anglo-irish treaty and the statute of Westminster recognised Ireland as a dominion of the British empire - SoW being in the highest jurisdiction for it - not 100% independence, and that was on top of the treaty ports the UK still held.

I don't want this thread to get off track though, so if you're gonna keep responding on how I'm wrong, I don't really care, but it's probably best to keep it on topic do some reading into the SoW, the A-I Treaty and the Irish 1937 constitution if you wanna learn more though, it is interesting.

in terms of hoi4 though, they should be displayed as a dominion, though like others have said, this should come with an Irish tree if they want to do that as itd make more sense - so not anytime soon, which is fine

 

[GrandVezir]

The problem is not that the UK considered Ireland to be a dominion, or even what the Irish considered themselves. The problem is that, if you make Ireland a dominion in-game, it will behave like a dominion in-game.

For example: the UK player opposes Rhineland, goes to war in 1936, and calls the dominions. Either Ireland behaves like a dominion and goes to war, or it behaves like Ireland almost certainly would have done* and wishes the UK good luck with all that, remaining neutral. If, through national spirits and/or hard-coding the Irish AI, they pursue the latter course, why bother making two layers of additional coding (first to make them a dominion, then to get them to behave unlike a dominion), just to get exactly back where we are now?

In a potential future DLC involving Ireland, it might be useful to explore the possibility of reworking the entire dominion system so that Ireland stays out of the UK's foreign entanglements, or perhaps to create a national spirit of "Special Dominion Status" or some other such thing to model the very complicated way the UK and Irish Free State interacted until the establishment of the Republic. As it stands now, it is more useful to portray Ireland as fully independent.

*To sum up, skipping a lot of details: Éamon de Valera was the party leader for the largest political party in Ireland during the entire period the base game covers (Fianna Fáil) and President of the Executive Council for the Irish Free State in 1936. de Valera had already forced out one royal Governor-General and begun a trade war with the UK over provisions of the Anglo-Irish Treaty, and was looking to end that treaty completely and establish an Irish Republic, which he did by 1937. I humbly submit that there is literally no way that de Valera or Fianna Fáil would go along with any kind of UK wars, allow use of the National Army, or even give favorable trade terms (not that Ireland has useful trade commodities in-game) under that government, all three of which the other dominions are basically hard-coded to do.

 

[Vlad123]

The problem is not that the UK considered Ireland to be a dominion, or even what the Irish considered themselves. The problem is that, if you make Ireland a dominion in-game, it will behave like a dominion in-game.

For example: the UK player opposes Rhineland, goes to war in 1936, and calls the dominions. Either Ireland behaves like a dominion and goes to war, or it behaves like Ireland almost certainly would have done* and wishes the UK good luck with all that, remaining neutral. If, through national spirits and/or hard-coding the Irish AI, they pursue the latter course, why bother making two layers of additional coding (first to make them a dominion, then to get them to behave unlike a dominion), just to get exactly back where we are now?

In a potential future DLC involving Ireland, it might be useful to explore the possibility of reworking the entire dominion system so that Ireland stays out of the UK's foreign entanglements, or perhaps to create a national spirit of "Special Dominion Status" or some other such thing to model the very complicated way the UK and Irish Free State interacted until the establishment of the Republic. As it stands now, it is more useful to portray Ireland as fully independent.

*To sum up, skipping a lot of details: Éamon de Valera was the party leader for the largest political party in Ireland during the entire period the base game covers (Fianna Fáil) and President of the Executive Council for the Irish Free State in 1936. de Valera had already forced out one royal Governor-General and begun a trade war with the UK over provisions of the Anglo-Irish Treaty, and was looking to end that treaty completely and establish an Irish Republic, which he did by 1937. I humbly submit that there is literally no way that de Valera or Fianna Fáil would go along with any kind of UK wars, allow use of the National Army, or even give favorable trade terms (not that Ireland has useful trade commodities in-game) under that government, all three of which the other dominions are basically hard-coded to do.

trade is also another fairly abandoned issue. Compared to Hoi2 and hoi3, the trade is too arcade ... I would prefer the old trade with money, or resource by resource which was not only realistic, not only beautiful, but also comfortable, even without putting accumulated resources within tot. ..

 

[Ironside112]

The problem is not that the UK considered Ireland to be a dominion, or even what the Irish considered themselves. The problem is that, if you make Ireland a dominion in-game, it will behave like a dominion in-game.

For example: the UK player opposes Rhineland, goes to war in 1936, and calls the dominions. Either Ireland behaves like a dominion and goes to war, or it behaves like Ireland almost certainly would have done* and wishes the UK good luck with all that, remaining neutral. If, through national spirits and/or hard-coding the Irish AI, they pursue the latter course, why bother making two layers of additional coding (first to make them a dominion, then to get them to behave unlike a dominion), just to get exactly back where we are now?

In a potential future DLC involving Ireland, it might be useful to explore the possibility of reworking the entire dominion system so that Ireland stays out of the UK's foreign entanglements, or perhaps to create a national spirit of "Special Dominion Status" or some other such thing to model the very complicated way the UK and Irish Free State interacted until the establishment of the Republic. As it stands now, it is more useful to portray Ireland as fully independent.

*To sum up, skipping a lot of details: Éamon de Valera was the party leader for the largest political party in Ireland during the entire period the base game covers (Fianna Fáil) and President of the Executive Council for the Irish Free State in 1936. de Valera had already forced out one royal Governor-General and begun a trade war with the UK over provisions of the Anglo-Irish Treaty, and was looking to end that treaty completely and establish an Irish Republic, which he did by 1937. I humbly submit that there is literally no way that de Valera or Fianna Fáil would go along with any kind of UK wars, allow use of the National Army, or even give favorable trade terms (not that Ireland has useful trade commodities in-game) under that government, all three of which the other dominions are basically hard-coded to do.

True, that's why I proposed that Dominions should be given inherently more freedom anyway, being able to decline a call to arms and not have divisions be requested, for example. While the dominions were mostly pro-Britain, they could've not joined the war if public and governmental opinion was against it - South Africa was unique in the sense that it was pretty much pressured into joining, but Canada, Australia and New Zealand did it on their own accords, it's just they were extremely pro-Britain. It would be neat for the British to be able to do a similar sort of thing that happened in South Africa in Ireland if they refused a call to war, essentially couping the government to get loyalists in which could lead to an armed insurrection against them, for example. There are a lot of possibilities!

In regard to the Irish republic, I will note that they weren't actually a republic until 1948 - the King was still head of state in the 1937 constitution, though he was named as the king in Ireland and not the king of, which made it very ambiguous until the 1948 constitution. I agree with the sense they should be displayed as independent as it stands though - they'd need a focus tree and matching national spirits to help show Ireland's unique position as a dominion, though I dont think they'd need to make additional coding to make Ireland work properly. Dominions themselves need to be given more independence and as the rest of them already have focus trees, just having them stay historical could make them always join the British wars, as a way of conveying their pro-British policies.

 

[Earl Grey Tea]

Why did they fight for britain? A pay? A greater purpose to defeat evil personified?

Most did it because they believed it was the right thing to do, it wasn't popular and I know only a few years ago the Irish state issued a pardon to their soldiers who left to fight the Axis forces.

Yep, they went to fight a true evil but got treated like traitors when they returned. All because they fought for the English. They were shunned from Irish society and struggled to find jobs. Some went homeless, some did eventually manage to get a living but most ultimately left Ireland and created a new life in the UK.

Although Ireland pardoned them recently, it was too little too late as those seriously affected already passed away or were living lives in the UK and didn't want to return.

 

[GrandVezir]

True, that's why I proposed that Dominions should be given inherently more freedom anyway, being able to decline a call to arms and not have divisions be requested, for example. While the dominions were mostly pro-Britain, they could've not joined the war if public and governmental opinion was against it - South Africa was unique in the sense that it was pretty much pressured into joining, but Canada, Australia and New Zealand did it on their own accords, it's just they were extremely pro-Britain. It would be neat for the British to be able to do a similar sort of thing that happened in South Africa in Ireland if they refused a call to war, essentially couping the government to get loyalists in which could lead to an armed insurrection against them, for example. There are a lot of possibilities!

In regard to the Irish republic, I will note that they weren't actually a republic until 1948 - the King was still head of state in the 1937 constitution, though he was named as the king in Ireland and not the king of, which made it very ambiguous until the 1948 constitution. I agree with the sense they should be displayed as independent as it stands though - they'd need a focus tree and matching national spirits to help show Ireland's unique position as a dominion, though I dont think they'd need to make additional coding to make Ireland work properly. Dominions themselves need to be given more independence and as the rest of them already have focus trees, just having them stay historical could make them always join the British wars, as a way of conveying their pro-British policies.

Rework the dominion system a bit? Let's play!

Give dominions some kind of affinity status, something like:

• Loyal (Australia, Canada, New Zealand), behave like dominions do now);
• Reserved (South Africa, Raj), needs some modest internal changes or external pressure to send troops or join wars;
• Hostile (Ireland) , absolutely will not join wars or send troops, might send volunteer manpower.

Loyal would not need any changes; reserved or hostile could be some form of national spirit that is removed or modified with either a national focus, or political power-fueled decisions by the UK. Maybe have the "loyal" dominions add an appropriate national spirit if they start breaking away under their nation focuses. Make Ireland and Egypt* some form of dominion/colony/puppet under this system. Maybe some others, those are just the first two I can think of that would most benefit from different treatment. Assuming Ireland still doesn't have its own national focus tree, add an in-game event for the 1937 constitution that effectively makes Ireland fully independent.

Possible side effect: having Ireland, Egypt or any other countries or occupied territories represented as colonies or dominions, may result in oddities involving war justifications.

*Egypt is another can of worms, but they had a nominally independent government. After some shenanigans, some of their army fought alongside the British as well. Since the parts that did were using British arms and never fielded more than regiment-sized formations, this could possibly be represented by raw manpower contributions.

 

[Ironside112]

Rework the dominion system a bit? Let's play!

Give dominions some kind of affinity status, something like:

• Loyal (Australia, Canada, New Zealand), behave like dominions do now);
• Reserved (South Africa, Raj), needs some modest internal changes or external pressure to send troops or join wars;
• Hostile (Ireland) , absolutely will not join wars or send troops, might send volunteer manpower.

Loyal would not need any changes; reserved or hostile could be some form of national spirit that is removed or modified with either a national focus, or political power-fueled decisions by the UK. Maybe have the "loyal" dominions add an appropriate national spirit if they start breaking away under their nation focuses. Make Ireland and Egypt* some form of dominion/colony/puppet under this system. Maybe some others, those are just the first two I can think of that would most benefit from different treatment. Assuming Ireland still doesn't have its own national focus tree, add an in-game event for the 1937 constitution that effectively makes Ireland fully independent.

*Egypt is another can of worms, but they had a nominally independent government. After some shenanigans, some of their army fought alongside the British as well. Since the parts that did were using British arms and never fielded more than regiment-sized formations, this could possibly be represented by raw manpower contributions.

That could all be done through a decision screen too, like the US's senate and you could maybe invest into them to make them more loyal, which in turn could make them easier to lower autonomy - more realistic than just spamming 1K convoys lmao

Egypt I would say would work best as a Collaboration Government funnily enough, while they were independent during this period that would make for terrible gameplay with how hoi4 works (like not being able to build in their territory being the biggest impact) a CG would provide the ability to show Egypt as a regime under Britain, not really an ally but not being given much choice. Honestly great idea for a loyalty system for autonomy, I feel that could probably be employed across the board to make puppets less static and more dynamic too

 

[GrandVezir]

That could all be done through a decision screen too, like the US's senate and you could maybe invest into them to make them more loyal, which in turn could make them easier to lower autonomy - more realistic than just spamming 1K convoys lmao

Egypt I would say would work best as a Collaboration Government funnily enough, while they were independent during this period that would make for terrible gameplay with how hoi4 works (like not being able to build in their territory being the biggest impact) a CG would provide the ability to show Egypt as a regime under Britain, not really an ally but not being given much choice. Honestly great idea for a loyalty system for autonomy, I feel that could probably be employed across the board to make puppets less static and more dynamic too

Unfortunately, democracies don't do collaboration governments.

Puppet with a hostile national spirit in 1936? And just hard-code the Italian AI to declare war on Egypt once they're at war with the UK, to get around Egypt refusing the call to arms. Maybe a "King Farouk" national spirit nerfing Egyptian manpower while they're a puppet, to stop the UK getting heaps of free divisions.

 

[Ironside112]

Unfortunately, democracies don't do collaboration governments.

Puppet with a hostile national spirit in 1936? And just hard-code the Italian AI to declare war on Egypt once they're at war with the UK, to get around Egypt refusing the call to arms. Maybe a "King Farouk" national spirit nerfing Egyptian manpower while they're a puppet, to stop the UK getting heaps of free divisions.

Democracies can't create a collab government, but they should be able to start with one - it's something in the history file so in theory that should work and yeah, have it so you can't take Egyptian divisions would be smart considering many didn't like the British

 

[Vlad123]

Democracies can't create a collab government, but they should be able to start with one - it's something in the history file so in theory that should work and yeah, have it so you can't take Egyptian divisions would be smart considering many didn't like the British

Perhaps this collaborative government should pass into Italian hands as soon as it "capitulates" to simulate the fact that Italians were seen as liberators (same as the Nazis)

 

[Arthrodira]

It should be a dominion at start with an election for independence very soon after. The dev's would probably only add it if they did an Ireland DLC (alt history, what if Ireland stayed a dominion. For some reason....). There could have been an argument for putting it in a UK rework (what if the UK refuses to accept the Irish vote), but they already passed on that opportunity I guess.

 

[GrandVezir]

Country pack DLC:

It should be a dominion at start with an election for independence very soon after. The dev's would probably only add it if they did an Ireland DLC (alt history, what if Ireland stayed a dominion. For some reason....). There could have been an argument for putting it in a UK rework (what if the UK refuses to accept the Irish vote), but they already passed on that opportunity I guess.

Country pack DLC: Ireland, Belgium, Luxembourg. Working title: Hobbits of the West.

Included with that DLC: fiddle with the TfV trees to fine-tune dominion code and to fix the Canada focus tree to finally make Québec a releasable/formable nation/puppet. Québec Impérial conquête mondiale, pour les mèmes!

Also have a way to allow the UK to make South Africa and New Zealand do the Mutapa and Polynesia formables as dominions, because I want a bigger Imperial Federation before I cheese the EU as well.

 

[Ironside112]

Perhaps this collaborative government should pass into Italian hands as soon as it "capitulates" to simulate the fact that Italians were seen as liberators (same as the Nazis)

Entirely possible, it'd give Italy a reason to focus on the northern African front too and not just death-stacking East Africa as Egypt could potentially be quite fragile

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Perhaps this collaborative government should pass into Italian hands as soon as it "capitulates" to simulate the fact that Italians were seen as liberators (same as the Nazis)

Potential Egyptian capitulation is one of the biggest arguments against representing Egypt separately (beyond that their army didn't really fight and they were a protectorate very much under the British thumb). Imagine if the Italians are pushing across Egypt, but the British are holding them at either the Nile or the Suez. If Egypt is a puppet here there is a decent chance it surrenders after Alexandria and Cairo fall, leaving the Allied forces, despite still being in a viable defencible position (or at the very least position to escape), completely cut off by the surrender and subject to quick destruction.

 

[Vlad123]

Potential Egyptian capitulation is one of the biggest arguments against representing Egypt separately (beyond that their army didn't really fight and they were a protectorate very much under the British thumb). Imagine if the Italians are pushing across Egypt, but the British are holding them at either the Nile or the Suez. If Egypt is a puppet here there is a decent chance it surrenders after Alexandria and Cairo fall, leaving the Allied forces, despite still being in a viable defencible position (or at the very least position to escape), completely cut off by the surrender and subject to quick destruction.

Exactly ... maybe Italy can be given a special decision to make them puppet immediately (collaborationist government? I think so) and same for other country of ME

 

[Spelaren]

Exactly ... maybe Italy can be given a special decision to make them puppet immediately (collaborationist government? I think so) and same for other country of ME

Turning them into a puppet would fuck over the peace conference.