Should I go for personal union over Spain?

[Sassporilla]

So I'm currently playing as Austria and I am head of the HRE. I am able to claim the throne of Spain. There are currently my allies but I also ally several other relatively strong nations. I can't say i've ever claimed the throne before and I'm not quite sure if I should go to war against Spain for the throne. I do have a stronger army than them and they don't have any major allies besides Portugal.
So really what I'm wondering is... should I go for it? also I would I be able to diplo annex them later on? i'm assuming this will of course be nearly impossible or take a long ass time/expensive but yeah. Just curios and would appreciate any form of help or suggestions!

 

[Dominion]

Claim throne, break alliance, trucebreak, increase dip rep, pu some random minor, chain inhterit.

 

[Dakka]

The Bourbons asked the same question and look at how they turned out.

 

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

The Bourbons asked the same question and look at how they turned out.

Well they almost did it. But still, yeah.

 

[Bouchart]

How old is their king? You don't have to go to war if the king dies heirless and you claimed. Also everyone you have a royal marriage will be really annoyed at you, including electors. It might affect your chances of being voted emperor again.

 

[gia257]

So I'm currently playing as Austria and I am head of the HRE. I am able to claim the throne of Spain. There are currently my allies but I also ally several other relatively strong nations. I can't say i've ever claimed the throne before and I'm not quite sure if I should go to war against Spain for the throne. I do have a stronger army than them and they don't have any major allies besides Portugal.
So really what I'm wondering is... should I go for it? also I would I be able to diplo annex them later on? i'm assuming this will of course be nearly impossible or take a long ass time/expensive but yeah. Just curios and would appreciate any form of help or suggestions!
View attachment 332192

if you arent rping, then yes spain is a huge prize, you can annex at about 70% admin efficiency later on and get all the colonies to boot

 

[Rudawitz]

Claim throne, break alliance, trucebreak, increase dip rep, pu some random minor, chain inhterit.

What’s chain inheritance?

 

[PrimeYuri]

Why are you even asking? Of course you should.

 

[atwix]

I do have a stronger army than them and they don't have any major allies besides Portugal.

then do it! unless your goal in campaign is to only focus on HRE mechanics.

So really what I'm wondering is... should I go for it? also I would I be able to diplo annex them later on?

you can integrate them once you got more province count then them. no, you can't inherit them, forget it, way too big.

If your ruler is really old (like 60+) stall the war until you get new young king, then make peace.

why? you gotta get spain on positive opinion to keep the Union when YOUR ruler dies, and that can take 10 years. Use diplomat advisor to speed up improving relation after PU'ing them and slap a diplomat on them month after peace to improve relations.

Don't have to worry about their liberty desire until the truce is gone.

 

[Dominion]

What’s chain inheritance?

Every time your ruler dies, there's a chance for him to inherit a PU minor directly.
Spain is huge, so you'll only get to a single-digit chance.

However, if you inherit one PU minor, you inherit all of them as long as your chance of inheriting them is above 0%.

So you grab a PU minor like Salzburg, push them to max (50% iirc), push Castille above 0%, kill your king 2 or 3 times, giving you a 50% chance of inheriting both nations every single time.

you can integrate them once you got more province count then them. no, you can't inherit them, forget it, way too big.

Dip rep offsets dev by a lot. Think the only nation that can't be inherited is Russia.
At least as Austria.

+2 from NIs, +1 from being Emperor, +4 from ideas, +3 from policies, +1 from your advisor and a chance for +1 from an event, +1 from a mission and +1 from Charismatic Negotiator.
The last three being semi-random. Remember, traits are weighted and Austria gets charismatic negotiators more often.

Can't remember the numbers, last time I checked was in my Saxony run and I didn't focus on it, but it was something like 150 dev per dip rep.

Long story short, everything up to 1500 development is easy to inherit as Austria.

 

[EmagDrolBot]

Every time your ruler dies, there's a chance for him to inherit a PU minor directly.
Spain is huge, so you'll only get to a single-digit chance.

However, if you inherit one PU minor, you inherit all of them as long as your chance of inheriting them is above 0%.

So you grab a PU minor like Salzburg, push them to max (50% iirc), push Castille above 0%, kill your king 2 or 3 times, giving you a 50% chance of inheriting both nations every single time.



Dip rep offsets dev by a lot. Think the only nation that can't be inherited is Russia.
At least as Austria.

+2 from NIs, +1 from being Emperor, +4 from ideas, +3 from policies, +1 from your advisor and a chance for +1 from an event, +1 from a mission and +1 from Charismatic Negotiator.
The last three being semi-random. Remember, traits are weighted and Austria gets charismatic negotiators more often.

Can't remember the numbers, last time I checked was in my Saxony run and I didn't focus on it, but it was something like 150 dev per dip rep.

Long story short, everything up to 1500 development is easy to inherit as Austria.

Is this a recent change or bug? Because that is not how inheritance used to work and is not how it worked for me in a game a patch or two ago. You would roll once and get all nations below the requirement you rolled. So if you inherit the largest country, you will get all smaller countries, but not vice versa.

 

[Dominion]

Is this a recent change or bug? Because that is not how inheritance used to work and is not how it worked for me in a game a patch or two ago. You would roll once and get all nations below the requirement you rolled. So if you inherit the largest country, you will get all smaller countries, but not vice versa.

Uh, I'm stumped.

Never ran into that situation before. Always inherited all possible nations.
Granted it is RNG heavy and it's not like you run into a situation like that in every campaign of yours so chances are I just got lucky.

I was not aware of this rule. Maybe I'll console test it later.

Point stands though. Every nation except for Russia can be inherited as Austria.

 

[Badesumofu]

I'm pretty sure the reason you often inherit PUs in clumps is that each chance is checked against the same roll, and the chance for each tends to be fairly close.

I'm not 100% sure I can think of a situation where I inherited one PU without inheriting all that had any chance to be inherited though, so it could possibly be a thing.

Easy enough to do some trials with console, I guess.

 

[Dakka]

Long story short, everything up to 1500 development is easy to inherit as Austria.

Don’t forget about another 5 from the age bonus

 

[Sassporilla]

So heres an update. I did the whole claim throne thing and I went to war with Spain. Right as Spain was about to surrender...the whole damn holy war between the protestant and catholic league started. I got Spain under a PU and they joined the war. My Emperor died because he was old as Atwix warned me about previously. I did go into this before a lot of other people posted. The holy did end and I still have a claim against Spain to restore the union. So really all I have to do now is wait for my manpower to recover before i go to war with spain and things should be relatively fine hopefully. I know what I need to do now so thank you everyone for you input and help!

 

[atwix]

Point stands though. Every nation except for Russia can be inherited as Austria.

from PU guide:


The full probability can be calculated as 5 x Diplomatic Reputation (Senior) + Stability (Senior) + 5 if both partners share a culture group - 1 per province in the junior partner.

The major effect is Diplomatic Reputation, which is 5% per point, and number of provinces owned by the junior, which is -1% per province.

The inheritance chance is based on their province number, combined with 10% chance for evey *two* dip reputation. Your Austria would get 70% chance to inherit, before counting provinces of junior PU.


so for a 14 diplomatic reputation Austria: if any Austrian PU subject has 70+ provinces, forget an inheritance even at 14 dip rep, barring stability and culture group influence.

The rule is you can inherit a junior PU that has dip rep times 5 in amount of provinces, if you don't share culture, and a bit more if you got +3 stab.

 

[gia257]

from PU guide:


The full probability can be calculated as 5 x Diplomatic Reputation (Senior) + Stability (Senior) + 5 if both partners share a culture group - 1 per province in the junior partner.

The major effect is Diplomatic Reputation, which is 5% per point, and number of provinces owned by the junior, which is -1% per province.

The inheritance chance is based on their province number, combined with 10% chance for evey *two* dip reputation. Your Austria would get 70% chance to inherit, before counting provinces of junior PU.


so for a 14 diplomatic reputation Austria: if any Austrian PU subject has 70+ provinces, forget an inheritance even at 14 dip rep, barring stability and culture group influence.

The rule is you can inherit a junior PU that has dip rep times 5 in amount of provinces, if you don't share culture, and a bit more if you got +3 stab.

-1% per province, +diprep*5%

hmm i see one post but quote quotes diferent content, interesting

 

[atwix]

-1% per province, +diprep*5%

hmm i see one post but quote quotes diferent content, interesting

@Dominion @Badesumofu full rewritten part of guide on inheritance of either PU subjects or random nations:

OPTION F : you inherit the throne, bypassing a personal union completely. There is huge difference between random inheritance and PU inheritance though!

1. So HOW does it work exactly (this is theory):

I wish to thank @Ternega to submit this theory in the thread. What follows is his theory on how inheritance works, and it is backed by observations and indirect evidence.

I will refer to a potential inheritor (player or random) as country X, to their existing PUs as PUs and to countries with disputed succession as DS.

You will need knowledge in chapter 4 to understand what is written below, as it involves tiers of nations.

Inheritance consists of 3 steps:

A) Random dice roll for all nations, the INHERITANCE ROLL (IR for short) for nation X

IR is not displayed anywhere in the interface and cannot be influenced by reloading game. Its up for debate when this roll occurs, but indirect evidence and observations leads to conclusion that it is likely rolled when any monarch takes throne in any nation, OR in periodic intervals of few decades. What is certain and backed by numerous observers: save scumming with an old ruler will NOT alter the outcome of inheritance, which leads to the above conclusion it has to happen lot sooner. Inheriting independent nations is special case, see below.

My own theory is that the actual chance for PU (or random inheritance) is calculated when the new (current) ruler takes/took the throne, and NOT when the current ruler dies. After that, this chance gets re-rolled on periodic (long intervals; length of timer unknown but likely 10+ years). Save scumming with a 70+ old king and hoping you will inherit won't work, as the chance is already calculated when he took throne or the SAME for a long period. I think they installed this to avoid players save scumming till they inherit.

Proof enough if you ask me

This roll will be checked if ANY heirless nation or PU subject can be directly inherited.

B) Comparing IR to the individual inheritance threshold chance (IT for short)

this is the % chance you can see in tooltips of PU subjects) of each PU stable for 50 years and for any DS nations that you can legally inherit (heirless (vassal) nations being in inheritance tier).

The full probability to inherit -for PU overlord or strongest successor for inheritance tier heirless (vassal) nations- can be calculated as 5 x Diplomatic Reputation for + Stability (Senior) + 5 if both partners share a culture group -1 per province in the junior partner or inheritance tier heirless nation.

I bet you say "wait what" now

The rule of thumb is you can start to get % chance to inherit a junior PU or random nation that has dip rep times 5 in amount of provinces. You will get chance even sooner if you share culture, and a bit more if you got +3 stab.

example: Austria has 10 diplo rep, 3 stability. Same culture group 3 province nation is heirless and in inheritance tier and their ruler dies , or Austria 3 province PU subject has been subject for 50+ years and new ruler takes throne in Austria.
Austria would get 50% chance from dip rep, 3% from stability, 5% from same culture group and -3% from 3 provinces in PU/DS for a total of 55% as inheritance treshold chance.

the inheritance chance of PU subject is calculated with diplomatic Reputation, which is 5% per point, and number of provinces owned by the junior, which is -1% per province. Austria would get 70% chance to inherit at 14 dip rep, before counting provinces of junior PU or DS.

so for a 14 diplomatic reputation Austria: if any Austrian PU subject has 70+ provinces, forget an inheritance even at 14 dip rep, barring stability and culture group influence.

The inheritance chance of random nations is calculated the same as above, but is ALSO dependant on them being in the right tier (see chapter 4) -which is EXTREMELY RARE- and on another rule: you can only inherit a nation if you have twice their province number, and IF the nation is smaller then 15 provinces.

IF IR<IT you will inherit nation on step C. It should be noted if multiple PUs have same IT they will be all inherited simultaneously or not at all.

C) Inheritance itself, happens when new ruler takes throne for PUs and when their ruler dies for DS. For PUs if check didn't pass they will stay your PU (assuming positive relations). For DS nations will either be inherited, become your PU, cause succession war or gain your dynasty, depending on the tier they are in. Vassals will never become personal unions, but can be inherited (including, in extreme cases, vassals of other nations ).

Only Inheritance threshold can be influenced without use of console.


2. EXAMPLE, because examples are easier to understand:

let us take Burgundy as example, led by a player, past 1500.

All three PU subjects of Burgundy can be inherited. Burgundy also has a chance to 1. to inherit the OPM independent heirless nation of Lorraine , and 2. to inherit their heirless vassal Nevers because both of those nations are in the right TIER to be inherited.

------> Step A:

Burgundy king took the throne decades ago, and the inheritance roll occured that day with a 100 sided dice, d100. The game rolled 10.

------> Step B:

1. Burgundy has three PU subjects. The king in Burgundy dies, or abdicates. The game compares the IR inheritance roll in step a versus the IT inheritance threshold chance of Burgundy' PU subjects (the chances can vary depending on current diplo reputation and stability, see formulae above). The IR inheritance roll is BELOW the IT inheritance threshold chance for all three subjects (meaning that IR 10 was lower then the xx%chance to inherit), which leads to inheritance of all three in step C. If the inheritance threshold roll is only lower then the inheritance chance for only ONE of the PU subjects is BELOW , then Burgundy will only inherit that PU subject.

2. Nevers and Lorraine have an invisible high inheritance threshold chance because they only have a few provinces. Since Nevers is a vassal of Burgundy and cause Lorraine is independent, the check for inheritance happens when *their* ruler dies. The new King of Burgundy was in line to inherit Nevers and Lorraine IF their ruler ever dies heirless while those nations are in the inheritance tier, because the inheritance roll of Burgundy was the lowest of all the possible successors with inheritance chance.

So, if a nation gets really Lucky to be strongest successor while random nation is in inheritance tier and their ruler dies heirless.. You can then inherit nations half your province number with a maximum province number of 15.. A player once reported seeing Muscovy inherit entire Denmark, without them sharing dynasty (with just RM done). Muscovy must have had REALLY low inheritance roll to go under the very small inherit threshold chance to inherit Denmark. The default outcome would have been that Muscovy delivers noble to take throne in Denmark.

Are you still with me

Note AGAIN that the inheritance threshold chance to inherit independent nations will be a LOT higher if you stack a load of diplomatic reputation. A 14 dip reputation Austria can inherit eglible random nations easily depending if their ruler dies heirless in in the right tier, or if their PU subjects have lower province number then Austria diplo reputation x 5.

------> Step C:

Burgundy gets cores on ALL the provinces of the nations that get inherited, and all nations inherited by Burgundy vanish from the map, becoming territory of Burgundy. Having negative opinion with legible inheritance subjects WILL prevent the inheritance, and might lead to the normal 'break union'. What happens to vassals/colonial nations of inherited nations needs to be tested still.

3. Important tips:

*if you see in diplomatic window of PU subjects that you will inherit one or even 5 at once, then ABDICATE. You will inherit them all immediatly, if it showed you would.

*for best chances of inheritance you should maximize your diplomatic reputation (and stability for that little extra nudge) when your ruler gets old (40 age or 50 age should be good threshold to do it, depending whether your ruler is general or not), additionally you can use enforce culture (if available) to gain an extra 5% chance.

Can you see now WHY Austria inherits a lot? They got high natural diplomatic reputation as emperor, their stability is usually high, and their culture group consists MANY nations.

Keep these parameters as high as possible until they are no longer in DS. When trying to inherit nations in DS it is advisable to focus on nations within your own culture group, and to weight benefits of inheritance with risk of gaining them as PU instead.

 

[Dominion]

from PU guide:
The full probability can be calculated as 5 x Diplomatic Reputation (Senior) + Stability (Senior) + 5 if both partners share a culture group - 1 per province in the junior partner.

I must be blind, because

Where is the chance being displayed?
Shouldn't there be "Chance to inherit on ruler death" somewhere?

Either way, I know your guide. It's one of the only two guides I keep recommending as mandatory to players. A true masterpiece.

But last time I checked during this run, which was a few weeks ago, it calced development, not provinces.
You may be out of date.

Anybody got a save with a >50 year old PU and chance of inheritance being displayed?

 

[atwix]

I must be blind, because

Where is the chance being displayed?
Shouldn't there be some kind of "Chance to inherit on ruler death" or something?

Either way, I know your guide. It's one of the only two guides I keep recommending as mandatory to players. A true masterpiece.

But last time I checked during this run, which was a few weeks ago, it calced development, not provinces.

hover over "personal Union with saxony" if you are player nation, or over the icon of PU subjects in diplomatic screen of random nation with PU.

it will disaply chance to inherit there mentioning dip rep and size, which is provinces.

if you do not believe me: check the number of size there versus amount of provinces of the subject.

Sorry buddy, but I know i'm right here