Should I claim the throne of Castile?

[Masquerouge]

I am playing France, it's the 1530s. I've got a royal marriage with Castile, and their succession has been disputed for a while now. I just got a new king, and theirs is pretty old (50yo) with no heir. We have roughly the same amount of mil tech, except I've finished all the offensive ideas so I have a ton of manpower (70K) and troops (70k). Castile is allied with Portugal and Venice, I am allied with Britanny and... Portugal. Aragon has not been absorbed yet, jut cut in half.
Only one other country has a royal marriage with them.

I think I can definitely win on the battlefield, but I really don't know if it's worth it:
1. Am I going to get a lot of aggressive expansion for successfully claiming the throne and forcing a PU?
2. Will I actually get all of Castile's land once their king dies? Will that gives me a lot of aggressive expansion?
3. How much trouble will I be with a lot of provinces from a different culture?
4. Which way will Portugal go in the war? Is there any way I can ensure they either go with me, or stay neutral?

In short, I would really like to try it for the fun of it, but I am really afraid that I will just ruin my game instead.

Any advice, concerns, comments, etc?

Thanks!

 

[Xara]

1. Unless you're the same dynasty you're not going to get a CB to force a PU.
2. You don't get their land until you inherit or integrate a PU 50 years after forming it.
3. That depends on too many other factors.

 

[grommile]

I am playing France, it's the 1530s. I've got a royal marriage with Castile, and their succession has been disputed for a while now. I just got a new king, and theirs is pretty old (50yo) with no heir. We have roughly the same amount of mil tech, except I've finished all the offensive ideas so I have a ton of manpower (70K) and troops (70k). Castile is allied with Portugal and Venice, I am allied with Britanny and... Portugal. Aragon has not been absorbed yet, jut cut in half.
Only one other country has a royal marriage with them.

I think I can definitely win on the battlefield, but I really don't know if it's worth it:
1. Am I going to get a lot of aggressive expansion for successfully claiming the throne and forcing a PU?

For claiming the throne? No. You will get a large relations penalty with everyone you have a royal marriage with, though. (Including Castile.)

For forcing a PU? Yes. Forcing a PU causes 30 AE base (which will probably give you rather more than 30 AE with Aragon and Portugal).

Note that to force a PU, you have to not only claim their throne, but also have the same dynasty.

2. Will I actually get all of Castile's land once their king dies? Will that gives me a lot of aggressive expansion?

Personal Unions work like vassalage, except that the junior partner doesn't give the senior partner any money. If you claim their throne and their king dies without an heir, you won't get any AE for the PU.

When you integrate a PU (like Annex Vassal), you get some AE. If you inherit your PU junior (which is unlikely with a large country like Castile, you get no AE.

3. How much trouble will I be with a lot of provinces from a different culture?

Not much. (In fact, a lot is usually preferable to a few, due to the way accepted cultures work.

4. Which way will Portugal go in the war? Is there any way I can ensure they either go with me, or stay neutral?

Start another war in which Portugal is willing to participate first, then stab Castile in the spleen while that war is ongoing. They may or may not join you in the war with Castile, but they won't be able to join Castile because they're fighting alongside you.

 

[Masquerouge]

I don't remember if we're the same dynasty. I know that when I look at the succession options for Castile, right now there are only three, a Spanish Noble pretender rises to the throne, and one of the two countries with a royal marriage get the throne.

Does that mean I could also simply get really lucky, do nothing and get the throne?

 

[Masquerouge]

For claiming the throne? No. You will get a large relations penalty with everyone you have a royal marriage with, though. (Including Castile.)

For forcing a PU? Yes. Forcing a PU causes 30 AE base (which will probably give you rather more than 30 AE with Aragon and Portugal).

Is there a point to claim the throne without going to war to force the PU?

Personal Unions work like vassalage, except that the junior partner doesn't give the senior partner any money. If you claim their throne and their king dies without an heir, you won't get any AE for the PU.

When you integrate a PU (like Annex Vassal), you get some AE. If you inherit your PU junior (which is unlikely with a large country like Castile, you get no AE.

So if I force the PU with Castile, it seems that I would need to integrate it at some point if I want the land, right?

Start another war in which Portugal is willing to participate first, then stab Castile in the spleen while that war is ongoing. They may or may not join you in the war with Castile, but they won't be able to join Castile because they're fighting alongside you.

Ooooooooh! Evil!

 

[grommile]

Is there a point to claim the throne without going to war to force the PU?

Only if their king is, like, eighty and has no heir.

So if I force the PU with Castile, it seems that I would need to integrate it at some point if I want the land, right?

Yes. But you should usually let them colonize the Americas first

 

[Lakedaimon]

Basically this:

If you are of the same dynasty and disputed succession: claim throne, declare war

If you are of different dynasty and no heir + very old ruler: check what will happen on death, if another nation will get a PU on them claim throne otherwise do not claim

If you are of a different dynasty and weak heir: do not claim

 

[eugene171]

9 times out of 10, yes.

There may be only a tiny chance you'll get Castille under a PU. It 's almost always always worth the soon-to-disappear relationship malus.

 

[Jaol]

What about when the current ruler is not of your dynasty, but has no heir and (according to the tooltip) a noble of your dynasty is going to inherit.

Wait for that noble to inherit, then try to force a PU later? Or claim the throne now, hoping to get the PU immediately?

 

[Lakedaimon]

That's a choice you'll have to make. If you can suffer the relationship penalty then you can go for it, if you think your interests will drive castille to eventually hate you it might be worth it to stirke now.

 

[grisamentum]

9 times out of 10, yes.

There may be only a tiny chance you'll get Castille under a PU. It 's almost always always worth the soon-to-disappear relationship malus.

the opposite. 9 out of 10 times you shouldn't claim throne. the malus applies to everyone you have a RM with, costs you 20 (or 50? cant remember) prestige, and almost never works.

 

[TheBloke]

I don't remember if we're the same dynasty. I know that when I look at the succession options for Castile, right now there are only three, a Spanish Noble pretender rises to the throne, and one of the two countries with a royal marriage get the throne.

Does that mean I could also simply get really lucky, do nothing and get the throne?

That sounds like you're listing the three details of the three Royal Marriages they have. I..e you're listing what happens to three other nations when their king dies.

Until you check and can confirm what happens when Castile's king dies, the discussion is pointless. You may well not be getting anything, anyway.

It will say, somewhere below the king's name and above the list of thre three royal marriages:
On Monarch Death....

Might then be, "Personal Union with France"
or "A noble from house FrenchyName succeeds the throne" (that being your dynasty)
or "A noble from house Some Other Nation succeeds the throne"
or "A Spanish noble succeeds the throne"


Then the other key part is whether it lists you as being same dynasty. That will be listed both on Castile's monarchy screen, and your own. On the Monarchy tooltip it will say "Same Dynasty: Monarch Name (country)". So if your screen says Same Dynasty Castile, and theirs says same dynasty France, you have same dynasty.

If you don't have same dynasty:

If it's the first of the possible Monarch Death scenarios I listed, you already have the most you can get in this situation. You can do nothing more. You'll PU, if they don't get an heir before monarch death.

If it's the second, then claiming the throne will give you the first situation, automatic PU - but again only assuming no new heir. You won't get a CB to try and force that. Therefore this is a risk because you'll lower your relations and Prestige to claim the throne, possibly for nothing.

If you do have same dynasty:

Then in the first of the monarch death options above, auto PU, claiming the throne will give you a CB to force it right now. That means you can definitely get the PU, regardless of new heirs, so long as you can win the war. You'll get the AE grommile mentioned

In the second, a noble of your dynasty, then claiming the throne might change it to a PU and again give you the CB to force it. Or it might not; there can be reasons that it lists a noble rather than a PU, even when you have dynasty. For example, is Castile the PU master of any other nation(s)? Aragaon, Naples? If it is, that blocks the PU situation, until Castile integrates their PU minor. I'm pretty sure that claiming the throne won't change this, though not certain.

If it's the third option, another nation, then you probably need to increase your prestige higher than that other nation to get priority.

 

[TheBloke]

What about when the current ruler is not of your dynasty, but has no heir and (according to the tooltip) a noble of your dynasty is going to inherit.

Wait for that noble to inherit, then try to force a PU later? Or claim the throne now, hoping to get the PU immediately?

Answered this a minute ago in the Quick Q&A thread, but for reference here - Claiming here will give you a peaceful PU with the target nation, but no CB to enforce it. If the king is very old, e.g. at least 60, ideally older, this might be worth it (especially for big, rich country which you'd love to PU.)

If he's young, it's not worth it, because you're trashing relations and prestige when he's almost certainly going to get an heir anyway.

Unless the king is old, just wait and hope to get your dynasty on (at no cost/risk), then the next time they have no heir you'll have more options.

Oh, and keep your Prestige as high as possible. If your prestige drops lower than other nations with an RM, it may not longer be your dynasty that goes on.

 

[Masquerouge]

or "A Spanish noble succeeds the throne"

It is this one for sure.

Also we are not of the same dynasty, and Spain is the leader in a PU with Aragon.

So... not worth it then?

 

[TheBloke]

It is this one for sure.

Also we are not of the same dynasty, and Spain is the leader in a PU with Aragon.

So... not worth it then?

Yeah. Could not be less worth it, in fact

I have a feeling it might change "A Spanish Noble" to "A Spanish Noble. A Pretender Rises"

Which is one of the most pointless and useless things I've seen. You'd think, logically, that that means that if that Pretender succeeds in winning his rebellion, he's of your dynasty and you get your dynasty on there. But, it doesn't. He's just some random new dynasty. (And the rebels won't win against Spain anyway; they usually don't even win against an OPM.)

So I have absolutely no idea what it's meant to achieve.

To be fair, I've only done this with the Pretender in situations where they did have an heir, but he was a Weak Claim. Maybe it's different when they don't have an heir at all. But I doubt it. And I'm pretty sure that them leading their own PU is going to stop you, as well.

 

[Masquerouge]

Yeah. Could not be less worth it, in fact

Thanks a lot! You probably saved my game from certain ruin.

It is frustrating though that the "disputed succession" list is not any more explicit... I got excited when I saw that Castile was highlighted in green.

 

[TheBloke]

Thanks a lot! You probably saved my game from certain ruin.

It is frustrating though that the "disputed succession" list is not any more explicit... I got excited when I saw that Castile was highlighted in green.

The green just means that you have an RM with them.

The PU/Claim Throne mechanic is the most convoluted and least understood (and understandable) of any in the game, I believe. Very ripe for an overhaul.

 

[Jaol]

Answered this a minute ago in the Quick Q&A thread, but for reference here - Claiming here will give you a peaceful PU with the target nation, but no CB to enforce it. If the king is very old, e.g. at least 60, ideally older, this might be worth it (especially for big, rich country which you'd love to PU.)

Thanks!

 

[eugene171]

the opposite. 9 out of 10 times you shouldn't claim throne. the malus applies to everyone you have a RM with, costs you 20 (or 50? cant remember) prestige, and almost never works.

I've got a very high number of examples that disagree with you. If you're a big power in Europe like France, I see no reason to RM your neighbors unless you're planning on claiming their thrones. A couple years of reduced relations is unlikely to ruin your diplomatic strategy.