Should I bother converting as an Ethiopian faction?

[unmerged(58493)]

I tried playing as the three Ethiopian factions in the demo, two of which start as Monophysite, listed as an Orthodox heresy. As you may know, under the plots/ambitions section a heretic ruler has an option to convert to his/her parent religion, at the cost of -500 piety (ouch). It's a drastic option, but one worth taking if you want to avoid being the only heretic surrounded by hostiles.

In the case of the Ethiopian Monophysites (Solomonid Duchy of Axum/Zagwe Kingdom of Abyssinia), is it really worth it? They surrounded by hostile religions to begin with, and the relations hits from converting really seems to cut down on the number of levies raised. It took a couple of tries but I was able grab territory from the Fatimids, who seemed to have stretched themselves too thin after quickly gobbling up Nubia, half of Axum, and some of their other neighbors (all of this in the timespan of the demo, by the way).

I like the idea of being on good terms with Constantinople, but I'm not sure if the pros outweigh the cons. Is the conversion via decsion viable, and if so at what point; are there alternate, less painful ways to convert; or should I just not bother? What are your thoughts?

 

[Darrigan]

I think the 'cheapest' way would be by sending your heir to be tutored to an Orthodox character to make him convert to Orthodoxy. Then you wait for your current ruler to die.

 

[UniversalWolf]

In a 20-year demo I wouldn't bother. It's a challenge just to get to 500 piety when you're fighting for your life the whole time.

My Nubia game went surprisingly well. I married the woman that gives you an alliance with the HRE, then called in the kaiser when the caliphate attacked. The threat of the HRE apparently made them abandon the border, so I was able to occupy Aswan and a couple other provinces. I survived for a long time but as soon as that war ended Axum declared war and I narrowly lost a big battle, and I couldn't raise enough troops to fight back after that.

BTW, what role does martial skill of generals play in battle? As far as I can tell the larger army always wins, regardless of who's leading it. In a closely matched battle it might make a difference, but if you have 125% or more soldiers than your enemy, it seems like you win every time. I've frequently had excellent generals lose battles to incompetent boobs with slightly larger armies.

 

[Secret Master]

Nah, I'd try to swear fealty to the Shia Caliphate to spare yourself destruction if you are the Duke of Axum. You can convert to Shiite if you want, but under the protection of the Caliphate, you can't be predated upon by Byzantines or Muslims with impunity.

 

[unmerged(58493)]

Nah, I'd try to swear fealty to the Shia Caliphate to spare yourself destruction if you are the Duke of Axum. You can convert to Shiite if you want, but under the protection of the Caliphate, you can't be predated upon by Byzantines or Muslims with impunity.

That's an interesting option, I didn't know that voluntarily swearing fealty was a possibility . I had tried buddying up to them by marriages and such, but it's something that they just wouldn't accept. I'm still in an EU3/MM mindset, wherein I need to get as big as possible to deter war; thus the Abyssinians, who can hypothetically grab some territory to the east and north before dealing with the Shia Caliphate. Nubia is attractive as they start as standard Orthodox...though I would love to play as Axum because I'm something of a Solomonid fanboy.

 

[Secret Master]

That's an interesting option, I didn't know that voluntarily swearing fealty was a possibility . I had tried buddying up to them by marriages and such, but it's something that they just wouldn't accept. I'm still in an EU3/MM mindset, wherein I need to get as big as possible to deter war; thus the Abyssinians, who can hypothetically grab some territory to the east and north before dealing with the Shia Caliphate. Nubia is attractive as they start as standard Orthodox...though I would love to play as Axum because I'm something of a Solomonid fanboy.

Well, if you try this approach, I think they changed the swearing fealty mechanic recently. Kings cannot voluntarily swear fealty to emperors anymore, so I don't think you can do this as Nubia or Abyssinia. You'd have to be the Duke of Axum to try this strategy.

This was probably changed to prevent certain exploits (like swearing fealty to the HRE as Kingdom of Sicily, then gobbling up Italy for yourself).

 

[unmerged(71030)]

That's an interesting option, I didn't know that voluntarily swearing fealty was a possibility

A minor side note, but be wary of switching lieges (i.e. swearing fealty to a liege whilst you already have another), since your former liege gets a claim on your title. As Duke of Bohemia I switched my loyalty to the King of Poland, took advantage of his war with the Baltic Pagans to declare independence, and found myself promptly DoW'd by the HRE. D'oh.

 

[the_legion]

and found myself promptly DoW'd by the HRE. D'oh.

This is kind of predictable because the AI tries to conquer anything in their de-jure-borders with high priority
which is IMHO a good thing.

 

[unmerged(71030)]

This is kind of predictable because the AI tries to conquer anything in their de-jure-borders with high priority
which is IMHO a good thing.

Good to know, thanks! I'm still learning the lay of the land in CK. Probably a better idea to pick up the Poles as allies instead.

 

[unmerged(58493)]

Well, if you try this approach, I think they changed the swearing fealty mechanic recently. Kings cannot voluntarily swear fealty to emperors anymore, so I don't think you can do this as Nubia or Abyssinia. You'd have to be the Duke of Axum to try this strategy.

This was probably changed to prevent certain exploits (like swearing fealty to the HRE as Kingdom of Sicily, then gobbling up Italy for yourself).

I tried it with the demo, and it worked pretty darn well! The Caliphate didn't have sufficient crown laws to keep me from into Sunnis expanding, though the Caliphs themselves did eat up the Zagwes to the south. In the long-run, the dominating issue would be the when/where of declaring independence; and of course, religious uniformity! My second ruler's son was converted to his tutor's Orthodox, though I didn't get a chance to play as him. I found it useful to keep my chancellor in the Fatimid capital (they seem to move it around..) to improve relations, especially after I declined offers to convert to Shiite.

 

[Secret Master]

I tried it with the demo, and it worked pretty darn well! The Caliphate didn't have sufficient crown laws to keep me from into Sunnis expanding, though the Caliphs themselves did eat up the Zagwes to the south. In the long-run, the dominating issue would be the when/where of declaring independence; and of course, religious uniformity! My second ruler's son was converted to his tutor's Orthodox, though I didn't get a chance to play as him. I found it useful to keep my chancellor in the Fatimid capital (they seem to move it around..) to improve relations, especially after I declined offers to convert to Shiite.

That's the ticket to survival. Congratulations, you passed Ethiopia 101.

In the long term, I wouldn't worry too much about conversion. Yes, your liege and other vassals will not like you as much, but unless they have claims on you, they can't attack you (no holy wars inside realms!). If this were the full length game, independence may not even be in the cards for over a century.

One thing you may have noticed. There aren't any mercenaries for you to hire down there. If you want access to mercs, you've got to conquer something on the coast of the Med so you are in range of the European mercenary pool. There are Islamic mercs, but you can't use them (your enemies, however, will abuse them as much as possible).

In the long term, you goal should be to conquer Islamic lands and move your capital there once the "recently conquered" penalties disappear. It's worth it just for the legalism increase, to say nothing of better buildings and more income. You are right next door to the learning centers of Islam. You might as well take advantage.

 

[Nick B II]

While you're doing that converting to Orthodox Orthodoxy might make sense.

You'd get a free "convert the heretics" CB against your neighbors in Nubia and Axum, which could be quite useful.

Nick

 

[Secret Master]

You'd have to be quick about it. The Caliphate and its vassals clean up that part of Africa within a decade or so in the games I've played. It's the Baltic Pagan Problem, but with Orthodox Christians instead of pagans.

 

[unmerged(58493)]

Yes, the Shia Caliphate will burn through its southern Christian neighbors very quickly. However, as a vassal I noticed that the caliph was always involved in several wars of independence in the space of 20 years, so I'm interested to see what happens over the course of, say, a century or two. I'd like to get to the point where I move my capital to Cairo, but I'll save that for a week or so from now

 

[Secret Master]

Yes, the Shia Caliphate will burn through its southern Christian neighbors very quickly. However, as a vassal I noticed that the caliph was always involved in several wars of independence in the space of 20 years, so I'm interested to see what happens over the course of, say, a century or two. I'd like to get to the point where I move my capital to Cairo, but I'll save that for a week or so from now

Depends on how inheritances shake out. The Shia Caliphate has a special succession law not available to Christians whose rules I don't completely understand at the moment. It causes real succession problems, but many times the strongest son tends to take over, resulting in consolidation of power. If you are lucky, though, the Shia Caliphate will move its capital to the low tech conquered provinces that used to be Nubia or Abyssinia. That will hurt their demesne at least.