Should hordes be Tengri?

[Afinati]

Embarrassingly enough, I don't know much about the evolution of Central Asia's religious identity. Of course it eventually got split among Buddhists, Confucians, Muslims, and Christians.... Didn't the khans outright switch their religion ... not just change which one they tolerated? Does 1.14 mean that Tengrism will remain at large even into the Russian sweep east? Or are there few enough provinces that Russia won't have trouble converting them?

 

[Kiyant]

Only the East-Asian/Mongolian Hordes are Tengrists.
The "Russian" hordes like Kazan or the Golden Horde were already Sunni Muslims at that time so its highly unlikely that this happens.

 

[klingonadmiral]

Only the East-Asian/Mongolian Hordes are Tengrists.
The "Russian" hordes like Kazan or the Golden Horde were already Sunni Muslims at that time so its highly unlikely that this happens.

I can't wait for someone to make Tengri Mughals, tho.

 

[Wizzington]

East Asian hordes are Tengri, Central Asian hordes are Muslim.

 

[MiniaAr]

Well, according to the wiki:

• Mongolia: "Buddhism first entered Mongolia during the Yuan dynasty (thirteenth-fourteenth century) and was briefly established as a state religion. The cult of Gengis Khan, who had been accepted into the tngri, the highest pantheon of spirits in Mongolian shamanism, became annexed into Buddhist practice as well. Mongolia itself was at a political and developmental standstill until the sixteenth century, when after the conversion of Altan Khan Buddhism re-established itself"
• Buryatia: "The territory of the Buryats, who live around Lake Baikal, was invaded by the Russian Empire in the seventeenth century, and came to accept Buddhism in the eighteenth century at the same time they were recognizing themselves as Mongol; to which extent Buryat shamanism mixed with Buddhism is a matter of contention among scholars."
• Oirats: "The Oirats converted to Tibetan Buddhism around 1615, and it was not long before they became involved in the conflict between the Gelug and Karma Kagyu schools."
• Sarig Yogir: "The traditional religion of the Yugur is Tibetan Buddhism, which used to be practised alongside shamanism."
• Manchus: "Shamanism was the dominant religion of the Jurchen people of northeast Asia and of their descendants, the Manchu people. As early as the Jin dynasty (1111–1234), the Jurchens conducted shamanic ceremonies at shrines called tangse. There were two kinds of shamans: those who entered in a trance and let themselves be possessed by the spirits, and those who conducted regular sacrifices to heaven, to a clan's ancestors, or to the clan's protective spirits."

By looking at the map, Mongolia, Oirats and Buryatia are properly Tengriist, while Sarig Yogir is accurately buddhist.
Tengriist manchus are a bit of an issue, they were shamanist until turning to "chinese folk religion" a.k.a Confucian in the game (I assume) when they became rulers of China. In my opinion, they should start as Shamanists and switch to confucian when forming Qing.

Wiz, what was the historical justification into making them Tengri?

 

[Wizzington]

Gameplay justification, to let them use the new mechanics.

 

[Trin Tragula]

golia, Oirats and Buryatia are properly Tengriist, while Sarig Yogir is accurately buddhist.
Tengriist manchus are a bit of an issue, they were shamanist until turning to "chinese folk religion" a.k.a Confucian in the game (I assume) when they became rulers of China. In my opinion, they should start as Shamanists and switch to confucian when forming Qing.

Tengri is now a stand in for all sorts of East Asian Shamanism. That's why the Tengri area was expanded.
Mechanically I think you'll find it works out pretty well with the Manchus mixing their Shamanism (Tengri in the game) and Confucianism.
In other words what Wiz said.

 

[MiniaAr]

So Shamanist is basically gone as a religion, except in the Kongo and natives in Siberia?

Also, I would argue that Shamanists Manchus (Yeren) weren't tedious to play as, which cannot be said for Mongolian buddhists: Mongolia, Khorchin. I'm happy of the changes for them.

 

[PhroX]

Yeren - the Shamanist Manchus - were far and away the most interesting Manchus to play. They reformed to Muslim instead of Chinese tech, and being Shamanist, you could do things like convert to Christianity when Westernising, while still being able to go Confucian either by provoking rebels or simply taking the Form Manchu decison.

Hopefully the 1.14 changes won't prevent any of these options.

 

[CzokletMuss]

Embarrassingly enough, I don't know much about the evolution of Central Asia's religious identity.

Another reason why paradoxplaza forum is great.

 

[Promanco]

I kind of feel that after mixing Tengri with a Religion you should have some way to fully convert to this other religion,
like a decision that requires 50% of development to be of said religion and less than 20% to be Tengri something like that, otherwise every Horde should be Tengri mixed with Sunni at the beginning of the game(at least the western Hordes), I also think there should be a decision chain for any non Tengri Horde to go back to Tengri.
I do feel the first part should be in the base game but meh both of them are easily moddable for myself so I won't make a ruckus about it.

 

[Comradebot]

I've had a fun play through before as Buryatia: definitely the more difficult of the two Tengri states in 1444.

Isn't much of a religion mechanics wise, though. You have a pair of decisions to choose between for either more conversion power or more religious tolerance, ala Religious vs. Humanist ideas... and at some point Buddhists will send missionaries to your court that you can either turn away or use to convert to Buddhism.

Otherwise, it was mostly just fun painting "Tengri" all over Northeastern Asia and the Western American coast. Game sadly ended up a tad on the boring side a little before a new patch came out. Ming exploded, leaving a power vacuum to my south that no state ever properly filled, and Russia mostly struggled and by the time our borders met in Central Siberia they were particularly weak, having been slapped around repeatedly by the Ottomans and Bukkhara.


It was still fun. Oirats and myself forged a mighty alliance, that sadly came to an end when we failed to prevent the combined forces of Yarakand and Mongolia (and their allies) from overrunning the Oirats, who ended up converting to Buddhism following their downfall. I liberated their remaining Buryat and Tengri lands when I got the chance, slapping Yarakand and Mongolia down to establish myself as the true power in the region.

 

[Zakath]

I kind of feel that after mixing Tengri with a Religion you should have some way to fully convert to this other religion,
like a decision that requires 50% of development to be of said religion and less than 20% to be Tengri something like that, otherwise every Horde should be Tengri mixed with Sunni at the beginning of the game(at least the western Hordes), I also think there should be a decision chain for any non Tengri Horde to go back to Tengri.
I do feel the first part should be in the base game but meh both of them are easily moddable for myself so I won't make a ruckus about it.

From a player perspective having tengri for all the hordes would be great fun, but it would just be silly for the western hordes. Islam was introduced in large part to stabilize the country, something which worked like a charm for a century or so. There weren't any major tendencies towards reverting to tengri, but a mod which sets them to tengri at the start would be played at least once

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Maybe they'll let pagan zealots convert you like other faiths .

 

[rzz41]

Tengri is now a stand in for all sorts of East Asian Shamanism. That's why the Tengri area was expanded.
Mechanically I think you'll find it works out pretty well with the Manchus mixing their Shamanism (Tengri in the game) and Confucianism.
In other words what Wiz said.

with all due respect, although i love the new mechanics for tengri, there needs to be a renaming of the religion if it is a stand in for both manchu shamanism and mongolian tengriism.
pick a name that better reflects its purpose: "steppe shamanism", "steppe religion", etc...

 

[hashinshin]

with all due respect, although i love the new mechanics for tengri, there needs to be a renaming of the religion if it is a stand in for both manchu shamanism and mongolian tengriism.
pick a name that better reflects its purpose: "steppe shamanism", "steppe religion", etc...

Yeah there's "realism isn't a good argument for gameplay." But then there's "naming stuff that it historically wasn't"

 

[Me_]

Yeah there's "realism isn't a good argument for gameplay." But then there's "naming stuff that it historically wasn't"

Oman used to be Shia for quite a long while, before Ibadi bacame a separate religion, so it's not like this is something new.
That being said, perhaps Shamanists could be given the Syncretism mechanic as well, that way the Manchus could be using the new system while being Shamanist.

So Shamanist is basically gone as a religion, except in the Kongo and natives in Siberia?

I'm not sure if Siberians are Shamanist any more. The word Tengrii in the screenshot reaches very far. It may just be Ainu and Kongo now. An obvious alliance .

 

[chrnno]

Oman used to be Shia for quite a long while, before Ibadi bacame a separate religion, so it's not like this is something new.
That being said, perhaps Shamanists could be given the Syncretism mechanic as well, that way the Manchus could be using the new system while being Shamanist.

I'm not sure if Siberians are Shamanist any more. The word Tengrii in the screenshot reaches very far. It may just be Ainu and Kongo now. An obvious alliance .

Asia and Oceania for Ainu, Africa and America for Kongo and they split up Europe?

 

[Itchel]

Well, according to the wiki:

• Mongolia: "Buddhism first entered Mongolia during the Yuan dynasty (thirteenth-fourteenth century) and was briefly established as a state religion. The cult of Gengis Khan, who had been accepted into the tngri, the highest pantheon of spirits in Mongolian shamanism, became annexed into Buddhist practice as well. Mongolia itself was at a political and developmental standstill until the sixteenth century, when after the conversion of Altan Khan Buddhism re-established itself"
• Buryatia: "The territory of the Buryats, who live around Lake Baikal, was invaded by the Russian Empire in the seventeenth century, and came to accept Buddhism in the eighteenth century at the same time they were recognizing themselves as Mongol; to which extent Buryat shamanism mixed with Buddhism is a matter of contention among scholars."
• Oirats: "The Oirats converted to Tibetan Buddhism around 1615, and it was not long before they became involved in the conflict between the Gelug and Karma Kagyu schools."
• Sarig Yogir: "The traditional religion of the Yugur is Tibetan Buddhism, which used to be practised alongside shamanism."
• Manchus: "Shamanism was the dominant religion of the Jurchen people of northeast Asia and of their descendants, the Manchu people. As early as the Jin dynasty (1111–1234), the Jurchens conducted shamanic ceremonies at shrines called tangse. There were two kinds of shamans: those who entered in a trance and let themselves be possessed by the spirits, and those who conducted regular sacrifices to heaven, to a clan's ancestors, or to the clan's protective spirits."

By looking at the map, Mongolia, Oirats and Buryatia are properly Tengriist, while Sarig Yogir is accurately buddhist.
Tengriist manchus are a bit of an issue, they were shamanist until turning to "chinese folk religion" a.k.a Confucian in the game (I assume) when they became rulers of China. In my opinion, they should start as Shamanists and switch to confucian when forming Qing.

Wiz, what was the historical justification into making them Tengri?

You just stated that the oirats changed religion around 1615, and then you said that buryatia changed to buddhist around the russian invasion, that means by 1444 there is a justification in making them tengri.

How come nobody saw that...?

 

[DEEPGAME]

All Turkic hordes were Muslim in 1444 whether Mongolians converted to Budhism in 17th century. Majority of Mongols was Tengri in 15th century while their rulling class converted to Budhism.