Should Germany have been partition along other lines following WWII?

[trybald]

I thought many tried to return, but apparently I was wrong. And they couldn't know they were due for expulsion so I don't think it was that insane to return. That might even have been the reason some of them didn't bring much belongings when they initially left (those belongings they were later denied from reclaiming by the Poles.)

Context. The Poles shipped into former German territories often had no belonging of their own since they had leave everything in USSR. In many cases, such as my grandfather, Poles were ferried directly from Soviet gulags, even with gulag-clothes on their backs.

I know that nothing justifies theft, but we are talking about post-war years and Poles survived the war were people who vergd on famine and just saw some of the most horrific things in the whole history.

What was the reason those Germans left in the 1950s? Expulsion? And why were they allowed to stay? Was it because they were catholics like with those Germans who were allowed to stay around Oppeln (and who still are there I think)?

They were allowed to stay because in many cases they were Polish speaking and of Polish descent (Silesians, Mazurs etc.). They left when they realized that Poland was to become a Stalinist hellhole.

 

[JodelDiplom]

Hm, I think I've made a mistake - it should be rather "by 1950". Anyway I think logistics mattered...



Well, there was plenty of people who claimed Polish origin to stay at home. Yes, mostly local Silesians like those ones who still live near Opole. They were usually bilingual, had definetly Slavic roots but often also German self-identity. People who was initially allowed to stay and then forbidden to leave, eventually found out that they are in commie trap and usually tried to take the very first opportunity to get to the other side of the Iron Curtain.
Commies rather didn't care if one was Catholic or Protestant...

german-polish relations in the former plebiscite areas of upper Silesia were, strangely enough, better than elsewhere. I once read that even the Nazis respected (most of) the League of Nation's stipulations on minority rights for that area, and that led to a more lenient attitude of the Polish authorities towards the Germans in that area after the war.

 

[Barsoom]

These bastards

Bike theft is a terrible war crime, you know.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Context. The Poles shipped into former German territories often had no belonging of their own since they had leave everything in USSR. In many cases, such as my grandfather, Poles were ferried directly from Soviet gulags, even with gulag-clothes on their backs.

I know that nothing justifies theft, but we are talking about post-war years and Poles survived the war were people who vergd on famine and just saw some of the most horrific things in the whole history.

Yeah the Poles themself didn't have a good time, since the Russians were pretty brutal towards them. So one can understand why they chose to steal all those belongings, though as you say it doesn't justify it. (Also many Germans starved too.)

 

[trybald]

To our sensitivities - it doesn't. To people just after the war - it certainly did. Wartime Poland was thoroughly brutalized and plundered by both Nazi Germany and USSR. German civilians were fed, clothed and supplied in large parts because of what was stripped from Poles. The only reason why there was no large scale famine in Poland was that, by some strange stroke of luck, early 1940s had some of the very best harvests in Poland on the record. Hundreds of thousands of Poles were slave laborers in Germany, many of whom were slaves at German farms and experienced first-hand the brutality and hatred from German civilians*.

So, Poles after the were not only half-starved and penniless, they also had huge sense of injustices that were done to them by the German government and German population.


*This included my other grandfather. Yes, one of my grandfathers survived Soviet gulag, the other went through slave labor at a German bauers' estates. He was traded between farms like an agricultural tool, and one of his "owners" fed him with rotten pig fodder that was too spoiled to feed it to pigs.

 

[pithorr]

Well, harsh times. Any war usually makes people demoralized. Especially bad people...

And you shoul realize what happened in the area left by Germans after Red Army came. No administration, no police. Military authorities didn't care so much about civilian issues. A lot of property was left so countless bands immidiately approached the area to plunder it... At least to plunder what was left by Soviet soldiers...

 

[Pellaken]

No!

What should have been done was Germany should have been split into 4.

East Germany was done right; and should have remained as is.

"North Germany" would have been, generally, the British Sector.

"South Germany" would have generally been the US sector (before France got it's share)

And lastly, "Austria"

I still insist this is the best option

That would have achieved what, exactly?

It would be cool!

Heck, get rid of Austria, merge it with South Germany, and screw the sharing Berlin crap.

See like this:

Frankfurt would be an independent city, and, as a result, after the fall of Communism, would become the Capital of Europe.

This would be a map from 2015, where the 3 "Germanies" are all satisfied to let one another keep on going.


North Germany, IE the former UK Sector, would have a Parliamentary system of government, like our Germany.

South Germany, IE the former US Sector, would have a Presidential system of government

And East Germany would have a French system of government, IE a combo.

Angela Merkel would be the President of East Germany!

 

[Premu]

It would be cool!

Heck, get rid of Austria, merge it with South Germany, and screw the sharing Berlin crap.

See like this:

Frankfurt would be an independent city, and, as a result, after the fall of Communism, would become the Capital of Europe.

These borders are so ugly that such a partition can only end in a German reunification! This gives any of these Germany's a "good looking borders"-casus belli.

 

[Barsoom]

I don't know where you got that map, Nickjbor, but the Netherlands lack even the pre-WW2 polders.

 

[Tyon]

These borders are so ugly that such a partition can only end in a German reunification!

Greater Germany... if only...

 

[f1nalstand17]

Greater Germany... if only...

Don't forget about adding German Switzerland and the Netherlands

 

[soda7777777]

Greater Germany... if only...

Only if Vienna is the capital.

 

[f1nalstand17]

Only if Vienna is the capital.

Actually back in the Frankfurt Conference of 1848, it was proposed that Frankfurt would be the compromise capital.